Candyman (1992 & 2021)
Hey pod and Happy Thursday! This episode is the 5th part of our Black August series, where we talk about the films that highlight Black resistance, freedom fighters, and political prisoners. Tonight, we turn to horror, which is a genre that often lends itself to the brutality that is our history as well as current events.
Candyman is a horror film written and directed by Bernard Rose released in 1992. Skeptical graduate student Helen Lyle (Virginia Madsen) befriends Anne-Marie McCoy (Vanessa Williams) while researching superstitions in a housing project on Chicago's Near North Side. From Anne-Marie, Helen learns about the Candyman (Tony Todd), a knife-wielding figure of urban legend that some of her neighbors believe to be responsible for a recent murder. After a mysterious man matching the Candyman's description begins stalking her, Helen comes to fear that the legend may be all too real. We will also be discussing the remake written by Jordan Peele and directed by Nia DaCosta, released in 2021 starring Yahya Abdul-Mateen II and Teyonah Parris.
We have Luticha Doucette, a returning guest joining us virtually. Luticha is the author of the groundbreaking book: Cultivating An Intersectional Mindset. She also was featured in an anthology, called Our Power- A Solitary Reverie. An inductee into the Susan M. Daniels Disability Mentoring Hall of Fame established by the National Disability Mentoring Coalition and the 2020 – 2021 Distinguished Alumni Awardee from the Rochester Institute of Technology. Luticha’s research and writing has been featured in various publications such as Insect Molecular Biology, Toxicon, The New York Times, and Yes! Magazine. She is the owner of Catalyst Consulting Associates, which helps organizations, leaders, and advocates examine equity across race, gender identity, and disability in policies, practices, procedures, and relationships.
Helpful articles for this episode:
https://ndquarterly.org/2022/01/06/short-take-race-and-urbanism-in-nia-dacostas-candyman
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/aug/25/candyman-review-nia-dacosta-jordan-peele-horror
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/aug/21/candyman-yahya-abdul-mateen-ii
Wherever you’re listening from, hit that subscribe button, give us a 5-star rating, share this episode and leave a comment to let us know what you thought of tonight’s episode. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Tiktok, & Threads.
Visit ourvoicesproject.com and sign up for our newsletter for more information about what we do. We’ll be back with another episode going into September to finish our Black August series with Attica (which is on YouTube).
Chapters
00:00 Intro
08:35 Cultural Commentary and Social Issues in Candyman
11:45 The Role of Race and Identity in Horror
14:35 Humanization and Resistance in the Sequel
17:36 The Impact of Gentrification and Police Violence
20:34 Conclusion: Lessons from Candyman
33:08 Representation of Black Women in Cinema
40:55 Exploring Black Struggles in Horror Films
45:50 The Role of Animation in Horror Representation
Mentioned in this episode:
Joe Bean Roasters
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Our Voices Project - Land Acknowledgement
Transcript
Hello pod and Happy Thursday.
Speaker A:If this is your first time listening and or watching welcome to Representation in Cinema, where we talk about the movies that center Black, Brown and Indigenous voices, as well as on the film industry itself.
Speaker A:I'm your host Jackie McGriff and also the founder, director and co producer at Our Voices Project, a production company that shares the stories and lived experiences of Black, Brown and Indigenous peoples through visual storytelling and truth telling.
Speaker A:We are community engaged filmmakers who firmly believe that you cannot center the voices of Black, Brown, Indigenous peoples without being in community and in solitude solidarity with them.
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Speaker A:If you're listening on your preferred podcast platform, hit that follow button.
Speaker A:And if you enjoyed tonight's episode, be sure to rate us 5 stars and also let us know your thoughts.
Speaker A:This episode is the fifth part of our Black August series where we talk about the films that highlight Black resistance, the political prisoners and freedom fighters.
Speaker A:Tonight we turn to horror, which is a genre that often lends itself to the brutality that is our history as well as current events.
Speaker A: by Bernard rose, released in: Speaker A:Skeptical graduate student Helen Lyle, played by Virginia Madsen, befriends Anne Marie McCoy, played by Vanessa Williams, while researching superstitions in a housing project on Chicago's near north side or Cabrini Green.
Speaker A:From Anne Marie, Helen learns about the Candyman, played by Tony Todd, horror legend, a knife wielding, or I should say a hook wielding figure of urban legend that some of her neighbors believe to be responsible for a recent murder.
Speaker A:After a mysterious man matching the Candyman's description begins stalking her, Helen comes to fear that the legend may be all too real.
Speaker A:We will also be discussing the I was corrected by Letitia earlier.
Speaker A:It's not remake but sequel.
Speaker A:Written by Jordan Peele and directed by or actually co written by Jordan Peele and Directed by Nia DaCosta.
Speaker A: Released in: Speaker A:We have a returning guest joining us on the podcast and that is Letitia Doucette, who's joining us virtually.
Speaker A:Letitia is the author of the groundbreaking book Cultivating an Intersectional Mindset.
Speaker A: y Mentoring Coalition and the: Speaker A:Leticia's research and writing has been featured in various publications such as Insect Molecular Biology, Toxicon, the me, the New York Times, and yes Magazine.
Speaker A:She is the owner of Catalyst Consulting Associates, which helps organizations, leaders and advocates examine equity across race, gender identity and disability in policies, practices, procedures and relationships.
Speaker A:Welcome back to the podcast, Leticia.
Speaker B:Thanks for having me back.
Speaker A:Yes, yes, glad to have you here.
Speaker A:Candyman was also a recommendation by Leticia, so of course happy to have you on the podcast to get down into or deep or dive down into both films.
Speaker A:Okay, so to start off the discussion, we got to talk about your initial reaction both to the original and the remake.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:How much time do we have?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So I watch this as a kid and I think that says a lot about the parenting situation.
Speaker B:But my mom is.
Speaker A:How old were you?
Speaker B:Yeah, in the 90s, I had to been like 7.
Speaker A:7.
Speaker B:7 Years old watching Candyman.
Speaker A:Oh my God.
Speaker B:My parents, both my parents were huge film buffs.
Speaker B:And so I think film was one of the first creative languages that I used to kind of explore disability.
Speaker B:And a lot of the things that I was feeling at the time, I have a traumatic brain injury and so on top of a cord injury.
Speaker B:And so being a black disabled kid in the 80s and 90s is a lot of pent up rage.
Speaker B:And so horror was one of the ways that I think my parents were like, maybe this will help her with her feelings and explore that.
Speaker B:So Candyman I really loved because here's this disabled man.
Speaker B:He's disabled and killed in a lynching, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And he's out for revenge.
Speaker B:And I love a good revenge story.
Speaker B:Yes, Right.
Speaker B:This woman done did me dirty and I'm not gonna.
Speaker B:You can get you in every lifetime.
Speaker B:And so he's gonna come for her.
Speaker B:And that single mindedness, I like that kind of idea where a disability is like hidden within the story.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not explicit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But also it is also the lens of the white people, especially Helen, who is just.
Speaker B:She's an academic married to another academic.
Speaker B:Even that scene where they're all at dinner with their token black person at the table and they are the experts of folk tales and whatnot.
Speaker B:And just the contrast between she's in these kind of parties and whatnot, where everything is abstracted and then she's going into kind of quote unquote, the real world and seeing that division between what could be seen as fantasy versus reality.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:And then her being a white woman not minding her own Business.
Speaker B:This is what happens when you don't mind your business and getting into things that you shouldn't be getting into.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So that was like my reaction when I first saw Candyman as a kid.
Speaker B:I was like, I had never really seen anything like that.
Speaker B:Where it seemed to be a conversation of nosy white people in privileged spaces doing things they shouldn't be doing and not having that deeper knowledge and understanding.
Speaker B:And bad things happen as a result when you're inserting yourself into things that you aren't deeply connected to from a cultural perspective.
Speaker A:Right, yeah.
Speaker B:So, yeah.
Speaker A:And then so, and so I guess might be contrast to that.
Speaker A:Like your reaction to the.
Speaker A:I keep wanting to call it a remake because it really does feel like a remake.
Speaker B:It does.
Speaker B:But it is a sequel.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because they refer to all the events that happen in that first movie.
Speaker B:And then the main character is the baby grown up.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker B:And what has happened.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:When I first saw it, I was like, one.
Speaker B:I really love the contrast of the lighting.
Speaker B:That's what really caught me first.
Speaker B:I really, really enjoy when black people make movies, especially like horror or sci fi.
Speaker B:I always think of what's his name?
Speaker B:Ola Tunde.
Speaker B:Osun Sanmi, I think is his name.
Speaker B:He directed the Star Trek section 31 movie.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:And the way that he lit things and black people, their skin was glowing even in the dark.
Speaker B:And so this had that same kind of tone and tenor with the lighting.
Speaker B:And I was like, oh, this is juicy.
Speaker B:I love this.
Speaker B:And then having a black woman be the hero.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And usually we see in horror, you know, she's.
Speaker B:She's gone.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:She's a plot device, you know, oh, she was so strong and whatnot.
Speaker B:And then she sacrifices.
Speaker B:Nah, that's not happening in this movie.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:She is absolutely central and the hero.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker B:Like, I love that about that one.
Speaker B:I was like, oh, yes, finally we get that black woman being sacrificed.
Speaker B:It's black woman.
Speaker B:She is the hero of it all.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Instead of being the token or the one killed off.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I have to admit, like, okay, so I.
Speaker A:For those that will be listening to this, please don't come for me.
Speaker A:I watched the sequel first.
Speaker A: I watched the one from: Speaker A:And then I recently, like, as.
Speaker A:As much as, like this week to prepare for this, I watched the original because it is a film that is part of a sun sub genre of horror that I tend to avoid at all costs.
Speaker A:I'm not someone who's like, into I'm not really into, like, kind of slasher gore, supernatural.
Speaker A:Like, it also depends too.
Speaker A:For me, I love psychological horror.
Speaker A:Like, I like my mind being messed with, but like, not.
Speaker A:But like.
Speaker A:Yeah, I.
Speaker A:So I was again, I was avoiding.
Speaker A:Was avoiding Candyman for some time.
Speaker A:No, you're.
Speaker A:No, no, I listen when someone's like, oh, I would recommend this.
Speaker A:I recommend this film right now.
Speaker A:Unless.
Speaker A:What would be bad if I were not able to finish it.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:And I finished it because I wanted to see it.
Speaker A:I wanted to see all the way through.
Speaker A:There have been movies that people have recommended that I have just been like, listen, I. I did.
Speaker A:I. I did my best.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:A one film that will continue.
Speaker A:Well, there.
Speaker A:I think there's been two occasions where I finished a film that I was like, hating throughout.
Speaker A:One would be Green Book.
Speaker A:I have smoke for days.
Speaker A:I have smoke for days for that with that 1.
Speaker A:And so much hate it.
Speaker A:Anyway, 2.
Speaker B:Secret life of Bees.
Speaker A:I haven't seen that one.
Speaker B:Don't see it.
Speaker A:Okay, don't say.
Speaker A:Okay, wait, wait.
Speaker A:Okay, real quick.
Speaker A:I know we're going off topic, but why.
Speaker A:Why not that one?
Speaker B:Listen, as a good black person.
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:Oh, God.
Speaker B:We's black women and we.
Speaker B:We uplift each other and we worship the maple statue.
Speaker B:Oh, that looks like Aunt Jemima.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker B:Black people that came into the theater and I was like, run.
Speaker B:Don't stay here, run.
Speaker B:They looked at me and they left.
Speaker B:It's terrible, Phil.
Speaker A:Okay, good to know.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:That makes me question a lot of things because I. I asked.
Speaker A:I asked was I.
Speaker A:Like sometimes.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:Maybe I'll get back into this.
Speaker A:But like, I would ask folks on TikTok, like, what are some that are like, that have mostly black women cast as far as, like, the leads or like, it has a black black women leads and everything.
Speaker A:And folks were suggesting.
Speaker A:Now I can't.
Speaker A:I don't know if these were white women or black women who are recommending the Secret Life of Bees, but now that you're saying that now that just brings a lot more things into perspective.
Speaker A:All right, anyway, so.
Speaker A:So no.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I.
Speaker A:And the other one, I would say I watched all the way through, but it did take me some time.
Speaker A:Was one battle after another.
Speaker A:Which will continue to catch strays on Representation of Cinema podcast.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, I could not stand that movie.
Speaker B:Terrible.
Speaker A:That was terrible.
Speaker A:Like, as a.
Speaker A:On its.
Speaker A:On its own, I think, like, it's a. I like, I. I tell people, I'm like, I liked the last third of the film.
Speaker A:But that first 20 minutes, what are we doing anyway?
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:And I'm like, I, I, I refuse to devote an entire episode to that film, so I won't.
Speaker A:But anyway, yeah, so, no, this was one.
Speaker A:Candyman was one that I wanted to see through.
Speaker A:Because it's like one of those.
Speaker A:It's considered a.
Speaker A:At least from where I've seen, like, I don't know if, like a cult classic.
Speaker A:It's, it's, it's one of those that folks are like, oh, you gotta watch.
Speaker A:Which also brings into perspective some other people that I've talked to who recommended it.
Speaker A:And I'm.
Speaker A:So now I have to kind of, I don't know, look sideways at some people because, because my initial reaction to Candyman was like, why, why do I feel so uneasy?
Speaker A:Like, why do I feel kind of sick?
Speaker A:And it's not, it's not just the fact that this man is, you know, walking around killing folks with a hook and there's bees coming out of his mouth.
Speaker A:It's not just that.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's also, like, more so.
Speaker A:For me, what was sickening was, like, the way in which the story is being told.
Speaker A:Again, there's, you have, like you said, there's this white woman who comes in.
Speaker A:Her thesis is on a folklore and urban legend, not about this dilapidated neighborhood where, like, it seems, it seems abandoned.
Speaker A:It's, it's, it's roughed up.
Speaker A:It's like, yeah, there's so many issues, right?
Speaker A:Like, my.
Speaker A:To meet.
Speaker A:To me, the more interesting thing would have been, you know, why are people still, like, there's still people here in this, like, neighborhood that hasn't been kept up?
Speaker A:Like, what's.
Speaker A:Nothing that has to do with, like, policy.
Speaker A:And of course, again, I'm, I think I might be asking way too much from the 90s.
Speaker A:But at the same time, it's, Again, it's like that, to me, is the more interesting story rather than you going into a place where you don't belong, or, like you said, Letitia, like, going into places that she's got no business being in.
Speaker A:And then to have that be the story again.
Speaker A:You have one.
Speaker A:Yeah, you have the one token black woman who ends up getting killed.
Speaker A:And then I'm thinking, I'm like, well, okay, so the story is that of a man who was lynched.
Speaker A:And it's talked.
Speaker A:That's, that's talked about once.
Speaker A:But the man has come back not to seek revenge or some sort of, like, beyond, like, vengeful towards white folks.
Speaker A:No, it's the other black people in, in this neighborhood.
Speaker A:So I'm like, okay, what's the, what am I meant to learn here?
Speaker A:Like, what is the usually like for me, good horror flicks, there's always something.
Speaker A:There's some underlying theme or something you're supposed to understand, you know, and, and I'm just sitting here like, like, what, what is this?
Speaker A:Are we focusing on again?
Speaker A:It's, it's, it's revenge against the wrong people.
Speaker A:He's killing his own people also.
Speaker A:So is this something about, like, black on black crime?
Speaker A:I'm using.
Speaker A:For anyone listening, I'm using air quotes here.
Speaker A:Black on black crime.
Speaker A:Like, so it's, it's just, it's.
Speaker A:It's all over the place.
Speaker A:And I'm sitting here and I'm going, this.
Speaker A:Okay, I think I know what's bothering me.
Speaker A:It's that this film is racist.
Speaker A:Like, and of course, I go back and I'm like, wait, who, who wrote this?
Speaker A:Who directed this?
Speaker A:It's a white.
Speaker A:It's a British man.
Speaker A:White British man who took this from a.
Speaker A:A book.
Speaker A:And you, Leticia, you want to remind me of the.
Speaker B:The book that it's a short story.
Speaker A:About.
Speaker B:Again, this was.
Speaker B:The story originally was set in like the quote projects, air quotes of England.
Speaker B:They call them council houses.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so it was originally a discussion about class.
Speaker B:And then when it was adapted for the American audience, class and race were added to it.
Speaker B:But I think for me, Candyman is unfairly blamed for killing other black people in the projects.
Speaker B:He did not do that.
Speaker B:He wasn't killing other black people.
Speaker B:There was a dude pretending to be him who was committing the murders.
Speaker B:And so it felt like there was like this double kind of blaming somebody else.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:For the things that were happening.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, it is.
Speaker B:I think, like, when I think back as to what was happening back then.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And the social commentary at the time.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Of what's going on in these projects.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:What is happening?
Speaker B:Etc.
Speaker B:And that idea of the hate saying black on black crime.
Speaker B:Because it's not real.
Speaker A:No, it's.
Speaker A:That's why I use it.
Speaker B:And that's true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so seeing it kind of set in that context, it was very much of that time, Right.
Speaker B:That of the super conversation that was happening.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's happening in this movie.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And why.
Speaker B:I think it feels so unsettling to watch it now, like the unease.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because it's so outdated in that kind of way.
Speaker B:And that I also think, like.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:That to have this character of Candyman he's unfairly blamed during his life.
Speaker B:And then he's also unfairly blamed in his death and being used as an excuse for, for the murders that are happening because they found the murderer of the person who was killed in the, in the projects.
Speaker B:It was the same guy that attacked her in the bathroom.
Speaker A:Oh my God.
Speaker A:See?
Speaker A:Yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker A:It's framed as though he did it, which is why I'm like.
Speaker B:So they use it as, like he's being used as this.
Speaker B:Again, this metaphor, right, that all the problems that are happening in Kabiti Breed is because of Candyman.
Speaker B:Right, Right.
Speaker B:All the bad stuff.
Speaker B:But it's really the people themselves who are, who are doing the nonsense or whatever that's happening there.
Speaker B:And so I think as a, like a vengeful spirit, he's like, yeah, say my name properly.
Speaker B:I ain't do all this.
Speaker B:I just want the.
Speaker B:The only person that he cares about is the white woman who did him dirty.
Speaker A:Which is a whole other trope.
Speaker A:This is a whole other trope.
Speaker A:Like, I think about, like, and there are.
Speaker A:I hope that they have, have, have, have learned better and done better, but I, I have definitely taken movie courses where they're, they're highlighting the accomplishments, although problematic, like, of D.W. griffith for birth of a Nation.
Speaker A:And I'm going, are you kidding?
Speaker A:Are we kidding right now?
Speaker A:But like, like, you have a film like that, that who's.
Speaker A:This whole premise, right, Is about black men going after white woman.
Speaker A:And I'm just like, so we're doing the same thing in this film is like the only thing that the black man cares about, the thing that he is obsessed with and mad over is, is the white woman.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:And so he's using her to like, kill other people.
Speaker A:And it's like, I, it's, it's insane.
Speaker A:I'm like, so we're going to go for the oldest trope in the book.
Speaker A:Yeah, just uneasiness all around.
Speaker A:It was gross.
Speaker B:Definitely.
Speaker B:And again, he's not responsible for other people's deaths, but is used to be responsible for other people's deaths.
Speaker B:And then it's this white woman who's like, I and only me can find the truth.
Speaker B:It is I. I smart, college educated lady.
Speaker B:I'm going to go into these projects and I am going to be curious and I'm going to write a paper.
Speaker B:And then what lady?
Speaker B:Like, because nothing is going to happen with your paper for the of K. Green.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And also, you know, I think there is this thing about Folk tales that is touched upon, I think, in both of them.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Of how they kind of can take holes and how we can use them for lessons.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker B:Warnings and things like that.
Speaker B:Or look at our current culture where, like, things will just spiral.
Speaker B:And now it's all over social media, the news, etc.
Speaker B:And it's not even true.
Speaker B:And how we kind of attach ourselves to that.
Speaker B:And I think that's.
Speaker B:That's another kind of commentary.
Speaker B:Both films kind of seem to have that threat of.
Speaker B:But I wish they would lean more kind of into that because I think that would have been more helpful for the story.
Speaker B:But I don't know, like, sometimes it's just a dude with a hook, sometimes.
Speaker A:It's just a dude with a hook.
Speaker B:It's like, sometimes it's just that basic.
Speaker B: iew things in Today's lens of: Speaker B:And yet the same situation keeps happening now that it did back then.
Speaker B:What have we actually learned, even though the lens has shifted.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The actual circumstances have not.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Very, very much so, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:From what I was getting from, like, the original, I was like.
Speaker A:I don't know if I'm maybe just reading too much into it or if this was meant.
Speaker A:Or he happened upon this, like, just by happenstance, was like.
Speaker A:I don't forget if there's like, a line in the film that.
Speaker A:That Candyman says it was something.
Speaker A:I don't remember the exact quote, but there was.
Speaker A:I felt like there was something being said about, like, being remembered only as, like, this sort of urban legend rather than who the man himself was.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:It's like we're.
Speaker A:We're remembering this person as this violent person instead of this man who was someone living.
Speaker A:I mean.
Speaker A:I mean, my God, we're.
Speaker A:We're still seeing black lynchings, like, all the time.
Speaker A:And it seems like it's just gotten.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's getting worse and worse and worse.
Speaker A:But, like, we're.
Speaker A:We don't remember who this man was before he was lynched.
Speaker A:I think there's this.
Speaker A:For me, there's this.
Speaker A:There's this thing of, like, the.
Speaker A:The way in which we only seem to hear about black folks, whether they be from the past or current, is when something bad happens to them, rather than remembering them as the people that they were.
Speaker A:The whole lives that they were living beforehand.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So I'm like.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I Don't know if he meant to do that, but that's.
Speaker A:There was something in.
Speaker A:In.
Speaker A:In the film that got me thinking about that because I'm like.
Speaker A:I'm, like, hearing the.
Speaker A:Hearing what happened to him, right?
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:That in and of itself like that.
Speaker A:That got a visceral reaction out of me because it's so brutal.
Speaker A:But then I'm like.
Speaker A:But then I'm like, I want to hear about who the man was beforehand.
Speaker A:Like, I'm thinking, haven't.
Speaker A:Haven't having not seen the film before.
Speaker A:Like, I was thinking we're gonna get some, like, flashback to, like, a time before he was.
Speaker A:Before he was lynched.
Speaker A:Like, you know, just a little bit into, like, who.
Speaker A:Who this man was, right.
Speaker A:Rather than what had been done to him.
Speaker A:And then him coming back for revenge.
Speaker A:And, like, all the things that transpired to the film, like, that's what I thought I was going.
Speaker A:That I might be getting, but that's not what it was.
Speaker B:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker B:And I think the lack of that as a viewer, right.
Speaker B:When a director is purposely not giving you a flashback, right.
Speaker B:I think that's intentional.
Speaker B:And having a character say this, it makes you stop and think, like, oh, my gosh, isn't this what's been happening?
Speaker B:You know, we only hear about, you know, it's Candyman.
Speaker B:You say it five times, right?
Speaker B:And then, you know something bad is going to happen to you.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:That's the only thing that people are saying about him all these years later, you know, hundreds of years later, whatever.
Speaker B:And yet that's not what he wants.
Speaker B:Like, he wishes that people could remember who he was.
Speaker B:And so even in the film, to still be denied that.
Speaker B:And even the people in Cabrini Green, right.
Speaker B:To be denied that same thing, right?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:They're all whole human beings.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Helen doesn't give them that at.
Speaker B:At all.
Speaker B:None of these people around them are giving them that at all.
Speaker B:Not the cops, nobody.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:And then you're like, oh, man.
Speaker B:Am viewer also complicit in that?
Speaker B:So I think that makes me sit and think, and it's why I think sometimes I like psychological horror.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:This is not the type of horror that I tend to watch either.
Speaker B:But this one made me sit and think and ask them some questions, like, what's the mutual participation here?
Speaker B:What changes?
Speaker B:How am I changed by seeing the film?
Speaker B:And what agency are we going to have for our own lives moving forward and to change the circumstances that we see that are right in front of Us.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:So moving.
Speaker A:Moving into the sequel, there's definitely, like, Nita Casse and Jordan Peele flipped, like, a lot of things, which I.
Speaker A:Which I was very grateful for because I remember watching that and going, okay, so this is interesting, number one, again, what you said about the.
Speaker A:So we're talking about the.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The lighting of the remake and everything and.
Speaker A:Not remake, sequel, Jackie.
Speaker B:Sequel.
Speaker A:It does feel like a remake because it's so like, again, Dasta and Peel turn this, like, on its head.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So the cinematography, beautiful, gorgeous.
Speaker A:Black people are lit well.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Everything's, like, colorful and rich.
Speaker A:And what the sequel does is it has those conversations about gentrification.
Speaker A:It has those conversations about the police being the real, like, villains, like the.
Speaker A:Being the.
Speaker A:Being the terrorists in this.
Speaker A:In this neighborhood.
Speaker A:I also thought it was interesting, too, that the person that we're centering the story on.
Speaker A:Of course, of course, you know, being.
Speaker A:Being Anthony McCoy.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But then also that the fact that he's an artist.
Speaker A:Who.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:And that's who Candyman was right before.
Speaker A:But before the lynching.
Speaker A:So I think that it's very interesting.
Speaker A:Not only is he the son of.
Speaker A:Of the mother, you know, whose baby was taken away.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And then eventually brought back in the original, but then.
Speaker A:But then he himself is an artist.
Speaker A:Just wanted to get your thoughts about, like, what you thought of things that the remake did as well.
Speaker A:And also, too, because.
Speaker A:Because we're talking about themes of resistance, you know, especially.
Speaker A:Well, specifically black resistance.
Speaker A:Do you want to talk more about that?
Speaker A:And the sequel?
Speaker B:So in the sequel, for me, it's the point of resistance is the humanization of the people of Cabrini Green.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That they have lives.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Even his mom, you know, when he confronts her and he's like, why did you tell me?
Speaker B:And she's like, I wanted you to live a good life.
Speaker B:She's not.
Speaker B:Black parents are not going to tell you about their trauma.
Speaker B:What are you talking about?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:I was like, yeah, we worked in the fields.
Speaker B:Like, they don't.
Speaker B:They don't go deep into all that.
Speaker B:It's like, you did what you had to do.
Speaker B:What are you talking about?
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:It's one of those types of deals where you're like, that was such a human moment of, like, this mom had such a horrific.
Speaker B:Like, her dog done got killed right in front of her.
Speaker B:The white lady attacks her.
Speaker B:Like, she tell her child that.
Speaker B:She's like, I'm getting out of here.
Speaker B:I'm gonna do my best.
Speaker B:By you.
Speaker B:I did.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:By you.
Speaker B:And I loved how they used the same actress.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:From the original.
Speaker B:I was like, yes, yes.
Speaker B:Let's go, Vanessa.
Speaker B:I love her.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And how wonderful that was.
Speaker B:Like, it was such attention to detail.
Speaker B:So again, like, this humanization is the resistance.
Speaker B:And then, you know, for the black woman.
Speaker B:And even how when he becomes Candyman.
Speaker A:Right, right, yeah.
Speaker B:He's still resisting.
Speaker B:He's not doing what original Candyman did.
Speaker B:He's still being his.
Speaker B:And the black love, even after death, you know, like, I was crying.
Speaker B:I was like, yes.
Speaker B:I was like, my man.
Speaker B:She's going, my man, my man, my man.
Speaker B:She would say that, oh, my goodness, he gonna get you.
Speaker B:And he does.
Speaker B:And she's like.
Speaker B:I was like, that's love right there.
Speaker B:Like, tell our story.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And that in of itself, like, to not succumb to all of the negativity and the weight that Candyman is, but to rise almost as a hero in and of itself, I think was a great act of resistance for the both of them.
Speaker B:They become heroes at the end of the story.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker B:I was just like, yes, yes.
Speaker B:Didn't know I needed that, but I did.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, I definitely watching.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:Because, again, like, as I mentioned before, like, they.
Speaker A:They for the sequel, like, they really kind of place.
Speaker A:Place police as being the real villains.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so this idea of, like, there being this if, like you said, like, like all of these things that are happening in this neighborhood, right.
Speaker A:Being blamed.
Speaker A:Being blamed on this black man, when in actuality, right.
Speaker A:It's the law enforcement that's coming in and destroying these homes, destroying the neighbor, like, just like killing.
Speaker A:Killing these people.
Speaker A:And so I really liked that.
Speaker A:And especially when you're talking about.
Speaker A:I mean, this is.
Speaker A: This is being made in: Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We're like, just the year prior, you know, we had the.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The murder of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery and Daniel Prude.
Speaker A:And so like, afterwards, and I remember, like, even researching for another episode about.
Speaker A:About Jordan Peele and.
Speaker A:And Nia Dacosta as well, talking about, like, how they especially Jordan Peele, like, writing in the horror genre and it being.
Speaker A:Or stemming his ideas, stemming from a lot of things that were frustrating him at the time.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I believe that Candyman is definitely a continuation of that.
Speaker A:And again, in how much we were talking about police brutality and talking about gentrification, we were talking about racial equity across so many things.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And in intersectionality as well.
Speaker A:The fact that it's a black woman who saves the day.
Speaker A:I can't tell you how many times I'm sure if I like, asked again, if I went on and asked tick tock or Instagram, right?
Speaker A:How many films do we see of a black woman actually turning out to be the hero at the end of the story?
Speaker B:And stay alive.
Speaker A:And stay alive.
Speaker B:Because that's the one thing that bugged me about sinners.
Speaker B:Why she gotta die?
Speaker A:Come on now.
Speaker B:I was like, what?
Speaker A:I. I'm so, yeah, so annoyed because I'm like, Annie didn't.
Speaker A:I. I'm like, she really didn't have to.
Speaker A:She really.
Speaker A:As much as I've like, analyzed that film and listen, we have two podcast episodes to show for it.
Speaker A:I'm like, I don't really.
Speaker A:I. I was like, let's.
Speaker A:Let's analyze it some more.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:Because in all of my analysis, I'm sitting there, I'm going, at no point am I convinced that you had to kill off Annie.
Speaker A:Like, there was no reason.
Speaker A:There was no reason.
Speaker A:I can see, like, the justification for the others, but I'm like, Annie, though.
Speaker B:But to further go out like that, I was just like, ah, yeah.
Speaker B:I think when it comes to any type of film, whether it be whatever, like the violence against women as plot device to be the point where the man is like, I will now rise and avenge my woman.
Speaker B:That irritates me so much.
Speaker B:And this did not happen in Candyman, like, whatsoever, right?
Speaker B:Like, if anything, he's trying to protect her in a way that his emotionally stunted self does not know how to.
Speaker B:Like, how the heck do you articulate to your wife that you're seeing bees and a man with a hook in the mirror?
Speaker B:You know?
Speaker B:Like, you can't really.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's a, that's a non black conversation even for millennials.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:Like, I'm just gna say, like, what?
Speaker B:You crazy?
Speaker B:Okay, okay, baby.
Speaker B:But yet she sees her man smiling and still is like, boundaries, because you can't be doing certain things right.
Speaker B:But I still love you, right?
Speaker B:And I still want this.
Speaker B:Whatever is going on with you.
Speaker B:I just need to know what this is exactly.
Speaker B:And that love, like, carries through even to, like, the very end.
Speaker B:And I'm like, you know, sometimes love does have something to do with it.
Speaker B:And normally I'm like, yeah, what's that got to do it?
Speaker B:I'm gonna be Tina Turner.
Speaker B:In this case, I'm like, oh, I like that love story in here to save the world of black people, right?
Speaker B:Because any man can now Be this person that you summon to help you.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:In times of, like, stress.
Speaker B:And I can, I can see it now, you know, you're surrounded by the police and you just say Candyman five times and then he comes to help you.
Speaker B:Like the avenger.
Speaker A:Right, Right.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker A:I love also too, that there's this.
Speaker A:And, you know, let me know if I'm going too deep with this.
Speaker A:But I also, when I was.
Speaker A:When I was watching that ending, I was thinking, I'm like, you know, often times it's like we are, as black people were already criminalized.
Speaker A:We're also, we're always, we're.
Speaker A:We're always seen as the villain.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:In real life, like, we had to have done something, you know, in, in order to.
Speaker A:Was kind of twofold.
Speaker A:It's like you.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's like we are, we are criminalized or like, for us to, to something bad happened to us.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, if we're, if we are lynched, you know, there's something that obviously.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I'm doing using air quotes again, like, obviously had to, like, we had something we had to have done in order to like, deserve, you know, to be killed.
Speaker A:And I just feel like it's, it's this kind of poetic thing, like, in the film where you have someone who is being blamed for a lot of stuff.
Speaker A:You have someone who's being looked at, at the villain not by his own people, but, but by other people, by law enforcement and perhaps like the, the folks outside of the community.
Speaker A:But like, we know, we know, right?
Speaker A:Who, who are the villains?
Speaker A:Who are the real villains in the story, you know, regardless of like, what you've done or what you haven't done, what you're being blamed on.
Speaker A:Like, we, we.
Speaker A:We know the truth of it.
Speaker A:And I just felt like that was something else I was thinking about at.
Speaker A:Towards the end.
Speaker A:I just thought that was, that was also another beautiful thing that I, that I saw.
Speaker A:And I mean, and I've.
Speaker A:And I've read many things, you know, folks have their opinions, you know, about Candyman and the execution, at least of the, of the sequel.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And whether or not it holds.
Speaker A:But there's.
Speaker A:I feel like there's so much in that film and that you could, you could just talk about without even getting to like, you know, the, the technique, you know, or like I said, like, the execution of the film.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I don't know.
Speaker B:No, I agree.
Speaker B:I also think that there is redemption for Candyman himself.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm going to call them Candyman.
Speaker B:One and two.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:That's fine.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:In Kitty man one, he talks about, I'm gonna live on and I'm gonna be worshiped.
Speaker B:I love when they say my name and they call upon me to come from, you know, the depths.
Speaker B:But then it's almost like these disappointments.
Speaker B:Like what you call me for what?
Speaker B:For some Moses.
Speaker B:I don't want to do that.
Speaker B:Like, he wants to be like, almost on the level of Jesus or something like that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Worshiped.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And yeah, he refers to people.
Speaker A:Congregation.
Speaker B:Right, yeah.
Speaker B:And so he gets that in Candyman 2.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:He now has almost of a reincarnation of sorts.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:By one of his worshipers.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Who has come and waited and summoned him again.
Speaker B:And so now he's his reincarnation to really do, you know, because he got his satisfaction.
Speaker B:But he's like, he's still got to go after all the white people who did him dirty.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Not just the one lady.
Speaker B:He's got to come for the rest of them, too.
Speaker B:And so I think that redemption arc for him was so satisfied.
Speaker B:I was like, yes, Katie, man is supposed to be the hero, not the villain.
Speaker B:He's supposed to be somebody who you're kind of afraid of, but you know, you can call upon in time of need.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I love that how they did that in the.
Speaker B:In the second film.
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So I want to.
Speaker A:I always ask, because this is representation in cinema, I always ask a question about authentic representation.
Speaker A:And for this, I kind of go back and forth about this because I'm going to continue to watch films that are like.
Speaker A:Like the kind of.
Speaker A:Jordan Peele is not the only one who does it.
Speaker A:But I'm going to say kind of like that kind of the Jordan Peele esque film, you know, where it's.
Speaker A:And he doesn't like with his horror.
Speaker A:With his horror films.
Speaker A:I mean, I think it was.
Speaker A:It was get out most of all, where he touches on like racial injustice and everything, but using current events as like that sort of like inspiration for horror or to speak to something that's going on that he was frustrated with that black folks, us as a collective have.
Speaker A:Have voiced being frustrated with.
Speaker A:And so I wanted to ask, do you.
Speaker A:What do you think of any aspect of the black struggle?
Speaker A:We also see it with TV shows like Lovecraft country, which I never wanted canceled, or I think it's called.
Speaker A:Is it from.
Speaker B:Oh, yes, I love that show.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So what do you think of the black struggle or any aspect of the black struggle being used as a, as the storyline for horror.
Speaker A:Is it something that you'd like to see continue?
Speaker A:If not, are there other kinds of representation in horror you'd like to see?
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker B:Oh, wow, this is complex.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker B:Let me explain the type of horror movies that I typically watch.
Speaker B:I am more of a fan of like Japanese animated horror.
Speaker B:I think my favorite is Mushishi, which is about like these invisible, like, bug like entities that if humans interfere too much with the world, you know, bad things happen.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Very much on the like existential crisis kind of, kind of thing.
Speaker B:But not so close to home that I'm just like having palpitations.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:I think being black disabled and a woman is a horror story in and of itself.
Speaker B:I have so many, like, sometimes even just what, like, has happened recently.
Speaker B:People are like, how are you still alive?
Speaker B:I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker B:I'm just gonna like, say, like, you know, so sometimes I don't need to see that.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker B:Because I'm living it.
Speaker B:I need some sort of relief, which is what I've used horror in the past to do.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like an exercise hell forever.
Speaker B:I don't think there are enough, and I keep saying this, there's not enough black disabled horror stories that exist outside of I've been maimed and I'm going to take revenge.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's usually how disability shows up in, in horror.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And not so much, you know, some of the psychological drama that you could have.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Within disability.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:What is the movie?
Speaker B:Oh, Jesus.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's the guy who's the writer and then he goes on his little writing trip in the mountains and then he's leaving and he gets caught in the snow and the woman saves him and she's like torturing him, basically.
Speaker B:Misery and misery.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:No, well, yeah.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Well, okay.
Speaker B:The Shining is also a good disability horror story.
Speaker B:One of the classics.
Speaker B:But Misery is another one that, you know, shows you the kind of psychological of what happens when you are physically disabled and you are with someone who is an abuser.
Speaker B:How the heck do you get out?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And too close to home for me.
Speaker B:But also very real and telling.
Speaker B:I would love to see something like that from a black perspective.
Speaker B:I would like to see more African folk tales because there's a lot of fun horror.
Speaker B:African folk.
Speaker B:Let it be animated or something.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:But like, I think that would just be so cool.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And maybe some sort of crossover genre.
Speaker B:Is it a Japanese, Korean, African folk.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:There's so many different ways that you could go.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker B:That's more creative.
Speaker B:But I think right now, these black directors are still kind of working out our own stuff, like, collectively.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because the horror is right in front of us every day.
Speaker A:Every single day.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh, Letitia.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for that.
Speaker A:Okay, so we're gonna have to work on some African folklore films.
Speaker A:Wait, and you said you had also mentioned.
Speaker A:So animated versus live action.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is it just because it's, like, too close to, like, we don't.
Speaker A:We don't want to see more trauma, but if it's in an animated, like, deal or.
Speaker A:What was your reasoning?
Speaker B:There are so many awesome black people who are making their own manga and anime and things like that, and I would like them be hired.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:To do, like, a full featured animated film in that horror genre.
Speaker B:I think, like, it is something that we don't see enough of.
Speaker B:Of that crossover.
Speaker B:It's always, like, live action.
Speaker B:But there are some things that you can do in an animated world that you might not be able to do, you know, with live action.
Speaker B:So I would like a mixture of both, but also shout out to all the wonderful black magakas out there.
Speaker B:I love y' all so much.
Speaker A:Do you know of any that we should be following?
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:I'll put in the show notes because there's too many to list.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So, Leticia, if you provide us with that, we will put that in the show notes for everyone listening and or watching.
Speaker A:Leticia, thank you so much again for being a guest.
Speaker A:Where can folks find you and how can they support you?
Speaker B:Well, one, support my podcast.
Speaker B:It's called Trek Talk, and it's done with my friend Maya Mama.
Speaker B:We are black nerds that love Star Trek, and we talk about Star Trek every week.
Speaker A:Amazing.
Speaker B:It's my happy place.
Speaker B:So that's on the Calling Up Justice YouTube channel every Thursday at 7:00pm Perfect.
Speaker A:Okay, so we'll provide links for that as well.
Speaker A:And then, of course, you also have books that people can be buying.
Speaker B:All the books.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh, so many books.
Speaker B:Please buy them.
Speaker B:I. I like the money.
Speaker B:Real, real horrible, horrible self promoter.
Speaker B:That's why I need to work on that.
Speaker B:No, listen, I am author.
Speaker B:Please buy book.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:Very no educated woman.
Speaker A:Also someone who speaks out a lot.
Speaker A:I mean, you also have your own.
Speaker A:As we mentioned at the top of the episode, you also have a business that's Catalyst Consulting Associates again, which helps organizations, leaders and advocates examine equity across race, gender identity and disability, and policies, practices, procedures and relationships.
Speaker A:So again, we'll have all of that information for everyone so you can go follow support by the books, all of the things thank you again Leticia for being on the podcast tonight.
Speaker A:Listeners will have information, like I said, about everything that we just mentioned, including where you can find Letitia and how you can support her, as well as where you can buy her books in the description below.
Speaker A:Of course, if you're watching on YouTube and in the show notes everywhere, wherever you're listening from, make sure you go and hit that subscribe button.
Speaker A:Give us five star rating and share this episode and leave a comment to let us know what your thoughts were about tonight's episode.
Speaker A:Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and Threads.
Speaker A:You can also visit us@ourvoicesproject.com and sign up for our newsletter for more information about what it is that we do.
Speaker A:We'll be back with another episode going into September to finish our Black August series with Attica, which you can now watch on YouTube.
Speaker A:This has been Jackie McGriff, your host for this episode of Representation in Cinema.
Speaker A:As always, thank you for listening.
Speaker A:This has been a presentation of the Lunchadore Podcast Network.
