Sinners: Part 1
A film so good we had to make TWO PARTS! This is the first episode doing a deep dive into Sinners with co-hosts, Jackie McGriff and Courtney Shouse.
Sinners is a horror/adventure film written and directed by Ryan Coogler starring Michael B Jordan playing twin brothers – Smoke and Stack – returning to their home in the Mississippi Delta in 1932 to start a Juke joint. In reuniting with family, friends, and neighbors, they gather a crew of entertainers, one of them being their younger cousin, Sammie–played by newcomer Miles Caton–who has an incredible talent that not only brings people together, but also attracts an evil force that dares to rip all of that apart. The film also stars Wunmi Mosaku, Omar Miller, Delroy Lindo, and Hailee Steinfeld.
SO, if you haven’t watched the film already, you can watch it in theaters now—please go see it in IMAX when it comes back on May 15! We encourage you to watch it and then come back to listen to our podcast. From here on out though, we’ll be discussing the film in depth so SPOILERS AHEAD and as always, you have been warned.
HUGE THANK YOU to our guests, CaTyra Polland, Muna Najib, and DJ T.A.G.O.E.
CaTyra Polland is a published author, editor, copywriter, poet, speaker, Founder/CEO of Love For Words and the creator of National Black Authors Day. She's an essayist for Christopher Coles who's being honored along with CaTyra on May 19 at 6:30pm at the George Eastman Museum. It's free to attend and every guest gets a copy of the book. You can register for the book launch and panel discussion at https://www.eastman.org/event/free-all-talks-special-events/moment-revolution-reckoning-reparation-volume-3.
She's also co-hosting a virtual Masterclass with Write, Edit, Publish for those who are looking to publish a book on June 7 at 1pm ET/10am PT. You can register here: https://winnpublications.com/write-edit-publish-a-self-publishing-masterclass/. Purchase your ticket before the price goes up on June 3! You can follow CaTyra at @catyrapolland on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn as well as her business page Love For Words on Facebook and LinkedIn.
Muna Najib is a Palestinian activist, writer, speaker, and educator. She wants everyone to go see The Encampments film and any film related to authentic narratives about Palestinians and the Palestinian movement film if it's playing at a theater near you! If you're local to Rochester, follow The Little Theatre and The Witness Palestine Film Festival - these two organizations have been making sure that Palestinians are heard and seen onscreen!
Be sure to follow @speakup_4palestine on Instagram!
DJ. T.A.G.O.E. is a Raleigh-based DJ, who seeks to bring community together through music and dance, blended with collective education rooted in history and liberation-based politics. Follow him on Instagram and Tiktok at @djtagoe.
Book Referenced: Africanisms in American Culture by Joseph E. Holloway
If you’d like to be a guest on our podcast, you can email us at info@ourvoicesproject.com. Please note that while we welcome all, we prioritize hearing from Black, Brown, and Indigenous folks especially since this podcast is about highlighting the films telling authentic and multifaceted stories of Black, Brown, and Native peoples.
Mentioned in this episode:
Punches & Popcorn
The masters of Couch Potato style Mike Huntone, Jason Bills, and Dr. Dominic D’Amore take a deep dive into the best and worst of martial arts films. https://punches-and-popcorn.captivate.fm/
Our Voices Project - Land Acknowledgement
Transcript
Hello listeners, it's Jackie McGriff and Courtney Schauss, your hosts on today's Representation in Cinema podcast episode where we're diving into the film Sinners.
Speaker A:I'm the founder, director and co producer for our Voices Project and I am.
Speaker B:The outreach education facilitator and co producer.
Speaker A:And our Voices Project is a production company that's committed to sharing the stories and lived experience experiences of Black, Brown Indigenous peoples through visual storytelling and truth telling.
Speaker A:Before we get into today's episode, we want to remind folks that you can listen to previous episodes on Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
Speaker A:You can also learn more about our films on our website@ourvoicesproject.com you can also learn more or you can also be a guest on our podcast if you email us at info our voices project.com please.
Speaker A:Please note that while we welcome all, we prioritize hearing from Black, Brown and Indigenous folks, especially since this podcast is about highlighting the films telling authentic and multifaceted stories of black, Brown and Native peoples.
Speaker A:Now there's a lot to get into with this film as it's packed with so many references to history, black culture, religion and spirituality, music and lore.
Speaker A:So we're going to quickly introduce our guests and then head right into the discussion.
Speaker A:Okay, so we have folks joining us in the studio and remotely because there's again a lot of conversation around this film.
Speaker A:Internet is abuzz with so many folks.
Speaker A:So in the studio we have Katyra Poland.
Speaker A:She is a published author, editor, copywriter, poet, speaker, founder and CEO of Love for Words, and the creator of National Black Authors Day.
Speaker A:Happy to have you here, Katyra.
Speaker C:Thank you for having me.
Speaker C:Hello everyone.
Speaker A:We also have Palestinian activist, writer, speaker and educator, Muna Najeeb.
Speaker A:Welcome back to the podcast, Muna.
Speaker D:Glad to be back.
Speaker A:Joining us remotely is DJ Tego, a rally based dj, Raleigh based DJ My Bad, who seeks to bring community together through music and dance blended with collective education rooted in history and liberation based politics.
Speaker A:Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker E:Hello.
Speaker A:Hello.
Speaker A:All right, so now onto the film for our listeners and viewers.
Speaker A:Sinners is a horror adventure film directed by Ryan Coogler and also written by him, starring Michael B.
Speaker A: e in the Mississippi Delta in: Speaker A:In reunited with family, friends and neighbors, they gather a crew of entertainers, one of them being their younger cousin Sammy, played by newcomer Miles Canton, who has an incredible talent that not only brings people together, but also attracts an evil force that dares to rip it all apart.
Speaker A:The film also stars Wumi Mosaku, Omar Miller, Delroy Lindo, and Hailee Steinfeld.
Speaker A:So if you haven't watched the film already, you can watch it now in theaters.
Speaker A:We highly, highly recommend that you watch it in imax, and as of right now, I believe in theaters.
Speaker A:It actually just left IMAX, but it will be back in IMAX on May 15, so make sure you check it out.
Speaker A:We encourage you to watch it and then come back to listen to our podcast.
Speaker A:From here on out, though, we'll be discussing the film in depth.
Speaker A:So spoilers ahead.
Speaker A:And as always, you have been warned.
Speaker A:All right, so a question that we ask all of our guests.
Speaker A:First and foremost, what were your initial thoughts about the film?
Speaker A:What immediately came to mind when credits started to roll?
Speaker A:Katara, we'll start with you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So for me, it was a very emotional film.
Speaker C:Is it okay for me to, like, mention the scene that made me cry?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:This is a complete spoiler spoiler special.
Speaker A:So get into it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:So, yes.
Speaker C:So the scene where they were.
Speaker C:I know there's a specific term for it.
Speaker C:It's escaping me where they were in the circle and they were dancing.
Speaker C:That was very powerful for me.
Speaker C:I felt like it was a depiction of all that has been taken from descendants of, you know, those who were enslaved.
Speaker C:And seeing the dance was just so riveting.
Speaker C:Even though it was, you know, it was an Irish dance, it just made me think of even the stereotypes that exist between the Irish and blacks and, you know, some of the stories about that and the history of that, and it just.
Speaker C:It upset me to the point of tears, but it also saddened me to the point of tears.
Speaker C:And to also see how the people in the circle were being controlled, literally.
Speaker C:So that was very powerful for me.
Speaker C:Very emotional.
Speaker C:I didn't expect that.
Speaker C:But the dance just really just.
Speaker C:It was just very emotional for me.
Speaker C:So overall, I would say the number one word from the movie is emotional.
Speaker A:Emotional.
Speaker A:How about you, Mona?
Speaker D:Okay, let's take it back to when before my initial thoughts, right?
Speaker D:Because I think the first thing that popped up in my head, sitting next to Jackie in the theater the very beginning of the movie was I.
Speaker D:Because I didn't know there was two Michael B.
Speaker D:Jordans in this film.
Speaker D:I didn't know anything.
Speaker D:So I was like.
Speaker D:I look at her.
Speaker D:I'm like, there's two of them.
Speaker D:Wait, I.
Speaker D:I don't know where I was during.
Speaker D:Because I did see the trailer.
Speaker D:I must miss that part.
Speaker D:But.
Speaker D:So that Took me aback.
Speaker D:And then I.
Speaker D:So initially just knowing that this is a Ryan Coogler film that, you know, he and Michael B.
Speaker D:Jordan have been working for together for a very long time now.
Speaker D:And, and Ryan Coogler, who is, you know, obviously has made quite a name and, and has proved himself, you know, in the realm of Hollywood as a director, as a black director, but as a just a phenomenal filmmaker.
Speaker D:I just, I went in like, just open to anything, right.
Speaker D:And I already, I already had in mind that, okay, Cine, like cinematography wise, like, the actual visuals were going to be amazing.
Speaker D:That alone beyond the scene where Katyra, you went like deep into the scene where they were doing the Irish dance.
Speaker D:Well, there was also the scene where Sammy was singing and I feel like that was like the lead up to that.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:So I think that was kind of like the epicenter of the whole film, you know, and we can.
Speaker D:I feel like that scene alone deserves like a class on its own.
Speaker D:Like, deserves an Oscar on its own.
Speaker D:It's very, very interesting.
Speaker D:Very beautifully shot and done.
Speaker D:And I think Ryan Coogler, and even during the interviews that they've been doing, this whole interview tour that they've been doing around this film has been very interesting and going through, watching them and you know, going down various rabbit holes with that one.
Speaker D:But he's been very generous on this tour explaining, like how he's filmed certain scenes and what he was thinking and the basis of this movie and everything.
Speaker D:And like, yeah, it's, it's.
Speaker D:So initially I didn't really know what to expect.
Speaker D:I knew it was going to be a really great film, it's going to be entertaining.
Speaker D:But as I'm.
Speaker D:I can't wait to watch it again.
Speaker D:Like, I feel like I need to watch it again.
Speaker D:But I've been watching these interviews to like learn or to gauge them, you know, to gauge where he was coming from with this one.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:Yeah, but I think that scene in particular is.
Speaker D:Is like the heart of the film and, and it really shows.
Speaker D:It's the music, the various cultures that kind of intertwine, the histories that are intertwined, the differences between the cultures and what connects them.
Speaker D:And obviously, you know, where black music and black history is the heart of all of that.
Speaker D:So, yeah, just beautiful, like breathtaking.
Speaker D:I would say it's just a breathtaking film on top of it being like just a crazy ride.
Speaker D:So.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:DJ Tego, your thoughts?
Speaker E:Initially, I mean, 10 out of 10, I was literally just like, this doesn't win every award on the board.
Speaker E:I'm gonna be kind of.
Speaker E:I'm kind of mad.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:Like, I was like, cinema, like, cinema.
Speaker E:Because I think he.
Speaker E:You're just watching.
Speaker E:I like this to say you're just seeing a nerd work.
Speaker E:You're just seeing someone who loves the art form.
Speaker E:And it's like, I'm gonna be a master of this and I'm gonna show you different ways of, like, I can communicate these things through visuals, through music.
Speaker E:It's such a musical movie where he just enraptured you with all your senses.
Speaker E:It wasn't just the visuals, it was also the hearing.
Speaker E:You could feel it, you could empathize.
Speaker E:You could feel so much through this medium.
Speaker E:And you could very clearly see he had a message and he delivered.
Speaker E:Like, this was cinema.
Speaker E:Like, I can't say anything else other than that.
Speaker E:Like, this was cinema.
Speaker E:And it made me want to, like, bet on myself in terms of art and, like, inspire others to, like, yo, master what you do.
Speaker E:Use that light within you and you can do amazing things.
Speaker E:You never know where it's going to turn out.
Speaker E:But when you're connected to your roots, when you're connected to who you are, what you do, your skills, talents and passions, you can move mountains.
Speaker E:So that was pretty much like my initial thoughts.
Speaker E:I was like, this is cinema, man.
Speaker E:Like, like, yeah, it's cinema in my house.
Speaker E:I don't care.
Speaker A:No, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:All day, every day.
Speaker A:Courtney, you had.
Speaker A:So I was.
Speaker A:Okay, so I was in a meeting and Courtney text me.
Speaker A:Because of course Courtney saw it.
Speaker A:She has like.
Speaker A:It's in her mind the freshest.
Speaker A:She's texting me all these different thoughts.
Speaker A:Courtney, what was your.
Speaker A:I know you texted me a little bit, but of course, for our audience, for you, what was going through your mind?
Speaker A:At first.
Speaker B:Yeah, before I.
Speaker B:Before I reiterate what I texted to you.
Speaker B:I have to go back to Muna.
Speaker B:Of course, Jackie.
Speaker B:The first thing that sticks out to me is, oh, my God, two Michael B's.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I'm like in heaven automatically because I'm like, yeah.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I think my takeaway was, you know, this is from Dusk Till dawn meets, like a side of Riverdance is a side of.
Speaker B:You know, there's so many, like, references to different films and pulling that all together.
Speaker B:But I think one of the biggest takeaways for me was this is.
Speaker B:This is a completely black narrative.
Speaker B:This is a story by and about black folks culture from that narrative, from that place.
Speaker B:It is not white centered.
Speaker B:It is black centered all the way.
Speaker B:And so what I really appreciate about this film is that there are so many nuances that if you don't listen or if you don't know, you're not going to catch.
Speaker B:So what I mean by that is there is no time to explain and it's not happening for your education.
Speaker B:I think about when we see Annie in her hoodoo house and she's doing her Yoruba prayer and she says asha, right?
Speaker B:And if we miss that, if we miss that, then we don't know what that means.
Speaker B:You know, to say that, to say that prayer or to work with those herbs and to say a shah, you know, to know that what she's doing is a ritual to invoke divine forces, you know, contacting spirits.
Speaker B:So I mean there's, there's a, there's a through line here.
Speaker B:And that's just one of many subtleties hearkening back to, you know, the motherland, to Africa.
Speaker B:So I think there was a lot to be said for how these things are playing out in the movie and how they're normal.
Speaker B:Like nobody is like thinking it's strange, it's just day to day life and it's just what it is.
Speaker B: how we landed in Mississippi,: Speaker B:And so I was really greatly, very, very much appreciative of that.
Speaker A:Yeah, I definitely resonate with everything that everyone's been saying, especially like right after the film.
Speaker A:And I kind of just was sitting there as the credits are rolling and I'm letting, kind of letting things kind of wash over me because for me, my, my, as far as like processing a movie, I will definitely sit there and of course, because I'm like, I knew there were going to be like a mid credit scene and it was going to be an end credit scene.
Speaker A:But I still like to, even if it doesn't, I still like to sit there and kind of just think, think through it, let like, let it marinate.
Speaker A:But then I need to talk about it immediately.
Speaker A:And I just remember like sitting there and going, there's no, like how to see something, first of all original from a black filmmaker to, to know that there's so many narratives, right, that don't get the funding, that aren't pushed, that people kind of push off to the side.
Speaker A:Watching that as a black filmmaker, knowing how hard it is even for people who are a listers, we are constantly talking about Viola Davis's fight to get the Woman King made and like just thinking through all the, all the different hoops, right, that you just, just like, I mean, filmmakers already have to go through.
Speaker A:But then to be a black filmmaker and to have studios constantly telling you, you know, that things.
Speaker A:Having an all black cast or predominantly black cast and having, you know, that's not going to sell.
Speaker A:It's not going to sell tickets, people are not going to get in seats.
Speaker A:And then you have something like Sinners that is packed like with not only just a great story, but there's so much history, there's so much lore.
Speaker A:Talking about, talking about Western Christianity and, And spirituality specifically.
Speaker A:There's just so many things in this.
Speaker A:Thinking through the symbols, like I said, like, Ryan Coogler is such a master and only having made.
Speaker A:I mean, having made, right.
Speaker A:Like we.
Speaker A:I was like.
Speaker A:The first thing I saw by him was Fruitvale Station.
Speaker A:And just seeing the storyline, the storytelling there combined of course with Michael B.
Speaker A:Jordan's acting abilities and, you know, like coming out of Sinners, I was just like, basically, yeah.
Speaker A:What dj, you know, Tega was saying about it being cinema, like, it's everything that I love about films.
Speaker A:It's everything that, you know, I got into filmmaking in the first place.
Speaker A:It's every.
Speaker A:It's everything or points to everything and every reason as to why I got into filmmaking in the first place.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's definitely a film that packs a punch, several punches.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:It has a lot of symbolism, it's beautifully made.
Speaker A:And it's by a black filmmaker who got to do what he wanted to do on a project and we don't see that often.
Speaker A:So there's like so many things coming together with that.
Speaker A:And I was just like, we're going to be talking about this for years.
Speaker A:It's going to be.
Speaker A:It is like.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:And I don't like comparing.
Speaker A:And this is not a comparison, but like in the same way that we are still talking about a movie like Inception.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Does the top.
Speaker A:Is the.
Speaker A:Is the top still spinning or not?
Speaker A:Like, things like that.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:There's so many different things in this film where, yeah, we're.
Speaker A:No wonder, like the Internet is like abuzz with so many people getting into think pieces.
Speaker A:And I saw someone else talking about doing a whole class on this film is because there is so much to that.
Speaker A:And I'm just like, yeah, that as a filmmaker I'm looking at that.
Speaker A:I'm going, that's what I want to do.
Speaker A:Like that.
Speaker A:That is what we set out to do.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it was fantastic.
Speaker A:So I mentioned history before and speaking and of course, with our voices project, there's always.
Speaker A:With us, there's always some sort of educational component, but also, like, how can you not with Sinners, with it being set in Mississippi right during Jim Crow?
Speaker A:And so I really wanted to get into the history first.
Speaker A:And then, of course, the.
Speaker A:The many other scenes, you know, that all of you talked about.
Speaker A:We're definitely going to be getting into that a little later.
Speaker A: s, like I said, is set in the: Speaker A:Do you all think.
Speaker A:And like I said, Cordy, you can give us the.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The history and everything, too.
Speaker A:Would this film have worked in any other time period?
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So if you want to go.
Speaker B:Do you want me to weigh in now or do you want me to.
Speaker B:Do you want to leave it open?
Speaker A:We can leave it.
Speaker A:We can certainly leave it open.
Speaker A:I know, yeah.
Speaker A:That you had, like, some notes just given, like, giving context to the history, but, yeah, we can have here.
Speaker A:Well, while we do this, DJ Tao, I'll start with.
Speaker A:Or Taco or Tego.
Speaker E:Sorry, you can just call me Tago.
Speaker A:Tego.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I will start with you.
Speaker A:Do you think.
Speaker A:Because I also saw you shaking your head, you're like, would this Will film have worked in any other time period?
Speaker E:Um, no, I think he, like, mechanically, he structured it in such a way that, like, all the events happen for a reason.
Speaker E:All the characters are the way they are for a reason.
Speaker E:It's like.
Speaker E:And the timeline, it works out pretty well such that it only kind of makes sense within that period.
Speaker E:Like Smoke Sack Twins.
Speaker E:They went to war.
Speaker E:What war did they go to?
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E: It's like this: Speaker E: pi for seven years to go back: Speaker E:What war was going on before then?
Speaker E:Probably World War I.
Speaker E:And we can kind of see, like, how that affected most definitely Smoke.
Speaker E:And how, like, he's like, I'm a soldier.
Speaker E:Like, I take orders, you know, and kind of how that characterization affected, like, how his outlook was.
Speaker E:You see the scene with him and Annie where he's like, yo, out there in the real world is power.
Speaker E:Out there is about what you can take, what you can break and everything.
Speaker E: time in Chicago, when this is: Speaker E: t prohibition, which ended in: Speaker E:1933.
Speaker E:We're kind of seeing, like, okay, there's also the added pressure of, like, Prohibition is probably on the way out.
Speaker E:The mob, Irish mob, and Italian mafia activity that like St.
Speaker E:Valentine's Day massacre and everything.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Like, there's probably added pressure to come back to Mississippi, not just because of the kind of breadcrumbs that they might have played them to get out of Dodge like that, but because with prohibition ending, sale of alcohol was probably going to become legalized.
Speaker E:The amount of money it would be able to make on the black market with it was probably going away anyway.
Speaker E:So it's like, okay, let's get out of Dodge, make what we can down here.
Speaker E:So it's like all those historical points kind of come together where it's like, this makes sense for them to do what they did, especially with, like, the, you know, coinciding with, like, the Great Migration, with Jim Crow, with the Great depression.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E: getting into swing because of: Speaker E: That ended: Speaker E:And most definitely with sharecropping, but also convict leasing.
Speaker E:Like, we saw the scene where they're driving past Delaware Lindo characters, Delta Slim driving past the folks that he was, like, part of that convict leasing gang with, where in the middle of this scheme with sharecropping, where, you know, you.
Speaker E:You lease the land, but you still don't own it and you still kind of working these conditions.
Speaker E:You also have folks who have been incarcerated and are, again, more or less functionally enslaved.
Speaker E:And it's like that dichotomy where it's like, not the economy, but, like, that through line of, like, folks don't own anything in this environment.
Speaker E:Like, truly, truly own.
Speaker E:It kind of just adds to the impact of this juke joint is something we own.
Speaker E:And it kind of just like tightens the story up so all these things come together at this specific time.
Speaker E:I'm like, historical materialist in that way.
Speaker E:I'm like, it happened for this reason because at this time, there's no other way to tell the story because of, like, it.
Speaker E:It just couldn't have happened any other way.
Speaker E:So, like, most definitely, there's no other way it could have happened outside of, like, this period.
Speaker A:Thank you for that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Anyone have anything to Add.
Speaker A:They'd like to add.
Speaker D:I guess I'll jump in.
Speaker D:I.
Speaker D:So as far as, like, having a general, like, knowledge of.
Speaker D:Of the history, of course, like, you know, growing up, we can.
Speaker D:We know about the Jim Crow era and especially down south and, you know, slavery of the.
Speaker D:Of.
Speaker D:Of certain times and.
Speaker D:And everything that happened at certain points, what we were taught, what we weren't taught.
Speaker D:But with this film, again, I really.
Speaker D:So here's the thing.
Speaker D:I'm.
Speaker D:I'm going to take it.
Speaker D:I'm probably always going to take it back to Mr.
Speaker D:Ryan Coogler because.
Speaker D:Why.
Speaker D:Why did he make this particular film, which I, like, I had no knowledge of anything of his life, personally, whatever.
Speaker D:I just knew he was a filmmaker and he's originally from.
Speaker D:From Oakland.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:He has that thick Oakland accent from his.
Speaker D:From his time, too, but actually, like going down that rabbit hole, really.
Speaker D:That's when I found out that this film was a very personal film for him.
Speaker D:It was based somewhat loosely on his Uncle Jim.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:And the stories that he grew up and the blue.
Speaker D:You know, the stories that Uncle Jim would share with him and the blues music that Uncle Jim would listen to that he also grew up listening to and.
Speaker D:And then later on having more of an appreciation for.
Speaker D:And that was a huge part of.
Speaker D:And this film was really a dedication to.
Speaker D:To his uncle as far as the whole.
Speaker A:I guess I think he was saying something to.
Speaker A:So I was watching an interview where he's talking.
Speaker A:He's talking about this and he's saying how when he went away to school, like when he was going.
Speaker A:He's in film school and he's away from his family.
Speaker A:He's missing a lot of things because of school.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like marriages, funerals, like, all these different things.
Speaker A:And so here is his uncle who's passing away, who's dying, and he's missing out on having those connections.
Speaker A:So this, like, this.
Speaker A:This leads into, like, a depression and he's listening to a lot of the blues that his uncle, you know, connected him to.
Speaker A:And so, like, that's at least the start of.
Speaker A:Or like the foundation of as to why he chose to make this film.
Speaker D:Yeah, and that makes.
Speaker D:I mean, that.
Speaker D:That makes sense, you know, and it.
Speaker D:It just.
Speaker D:It makes the film even more poignant, I think, for me, the fact that there was such a personal connection there for him.
Speaker D:So there's absolutely.
Speaker D:That history of The Mississippi South 100%, which I think many other, you know, black filmmakers could have made a very similar, you know, similar ish type of idea.
Speaker D:Of a film kind of like this and you know, okay, you can throw in the vampires, but I think with Ryan, with Ryan Coogler, because of that personal connection, there's, there's just a different sort of essence there.
Speaker D:And yeah, so I, I'm just going to read a little bit about.
Speaker D:There's a small article about that specifically, if I can just like.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker D: articles about sinners set in: Speaker D:That aspect is certainly present in the film.
Speaker D:Sinners does not shy away from the hardships of cotton picking clan invested rural Mississippi.
Speaker D:But that wasn't, that was not at the soul of his uncle's stories, nor was it what was on Coogler's mind as his morning ritual morphed into this new artistic undertaking.
Speaker D:So, yeah, I don't know, it just gives.
Speaker D:Gave, at least for me, it, besides going into this film and seeing it for what it is, learning that I think just gave it more of that sentimental, even more emotional value of the film for sure.
Speaker D:On top of the history, right?
Speaker A:Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Can I build on that, Jackie?
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:So really building on what Tego had to say, you know, obviously the setting is perfect, but I do want to say with the question being, would this film have worked in any other time period?
Speaker B:I think we do have to acknowledge that I don't believe the Jim Crow era is over.
Speaker B:I think it's morphed.
Speaker B:I think we still are facing an evolutionized Jim Crow era, but that's another podcast altogether.
Speaker B: e facing here in Mississippi,: Speaker B:We have sharecroppers, tenant farmers, huge presence of kkk.
Speaker B:We have the grand dragon here.
Speaker B: out in this movie, but in the: Speaker B:And so we're seeing this, this whole birth of music which is then later appropriated and considered white music.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So the presence of the juke joints being a place where black Americans could gather freely during segregation, away from white surveillance and control.
Speaker B:And then we see how these Juke joints operate as entertainment and a community hub.
Speaker B:But they're also these underground economies that offer refuge, but they also have their own, like, unspoken codes of conduct.
Speaker B:Because we see how there's, you know, the white people can't really.
Speaker B:Don't let the white people in here because it's gonna lead to all these.
Speaker B:All kinds of other issues.
Speaker B:What if somebody steps on one of their feet?
Speaker B:What if somebody looks at them wrong?
Speaker B:What if.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But the other piece that we didn't really talk about that I think lends a perfect setting for this movie is that infusion of hoodoo, which is that African American folk magic that we see Annie right away, as soon as we meet Andy, we see that.
Speaker B:That it's so integral to her character.
Speaker B:And the reason why I bring that up is because that is something that was very much part of enslaved culture.
Speaker B: see that when we go into the: Speaker B:And I think it was that piece that really helped our main characters understand what was going on with the dead, alive people.
Speaker B:And I think that without having that sort of hoodoo, African American folk magic aspect to it, I'm not sure we would have been able to move the movie along the way it did because it was the trust that they had in Annie and in sort of believing that, oh, okay, this is what we're facing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I think that was a big piece too.
Speaker B:And I'm not sure that in a more modern setting, it would have worked.
Speaker B:And certainly before, you know, slavery was, you know, before emancipation, I don't know that that would have been effective either because I'm not sure we would have had a juke joint.
Speaker B:But the.
Speaker B:Also, the other piece, too, that I just wanted to mention is that this also allowed our director, screenwriter, to bring in real, real life, real things into the movie.
Speaker B:So we know Sammy's from Sunflower Plantation.
Speaker B:This is a real place.
Speaker B: And by: Speaker B:census is telling us that 80% of the residents in Kahoma county, which is where Sunflower Plantation is, are black.
Speaker B:And out of the 23,000 that are living there, 19,000 of the black workers are working on local plantations as sharecroppers, farm laborers.
Speaker B:And most of the whites living there have Irish ancestry.
Speaker B:We also.
Speaker B:Yeah, so we also.
Speaker B:We also know that sharecropping systems, instead of paying wages to black tenant farmers, former enslavers used vouchers or coupons or tokens to redeem at their plantation stores.
Speaker B:We see that when they're at the juke joint and we see someone paying with wooden coins.
Speaker B:But this was a way to keep emancipated sharecroppers in debt and poverty since the Civil War.
Speaker B:And then, of course, we do see culture vultures.
Speaker B:We see that, you know, with Remik as our antagonist.
Speaker B:He appears on the scene, there's vultures circling overhead, and he plays the banjo.
Speaker B:And the banjo, if you didn't know, is is an instrument that originated in western Africa, but it is also a uniquely black African instrument.
Speaker B: In the early: Speaker B:And then also Tego.
Speaker B:I think we're right on.
Speaker B:Right on the same track here because we do see that reference to the Gandhi dancers, which are the railroad workers who used traditional black music and blues to keep the rhythm while laying the railroad tracks.
Speaker B:While another fact is that Irish men were often charged with leading the railroad cruise made up of black men who were subjected to the.
Speaker B:The convict leasing system.
Speaker B:So another opportunity for appropriation.
Speaker B:If you bear with me, I've got a couple more facts that I think are really interesting.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:There's so, like I said, there's so much history that's packed into this book.
Speaker B:There's so much that the.
Speaker B:I know that the.
Speaker B:The term tank was used quite a bit in the movie, and I'm not sure if that's a wide spread term that we.
Speaker B:That we all understand.
Speaker B:I did not.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:I did have to research this paint.
Speaker B:Blue is referred to as a range of pale blue green colors that remind us of the water or the sky.
Speaker B:And this color was used to paint the porch ceilings of homes in the Deep South.
Speaker B:But the origin of haint, it means haunt, and it refers to ghosts or evil spirits.
Speaker B:And the word haint comes from the Gula, which is people who were descended from Central and West African enslaved people who settled in Georgia and South Carolina.
Speaker B:But the belief was that haints were.
Speaker B:They walked the earth, so they were evil spirits that walked the earth.
Speaker B:They could come into your home through a door or a window, and they could disturb.
Speaker B:They could disturb your life, your everyday life.
Speaker B:But hants were afraid of water.
Speaker B:So the doors, windows, frames, shutters, porch ceilings, they were painted this watery shade of blue to repel the hanks, the spirits.
Speaker B:So we do see in this way that that blue color is a protection color.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So when we think back to the movie, we see that smoke is wearing blue.
Speaker B:We see that Annie's dress is blue.
Speaker B:We see that the hoodoo shop is draped in light blues and greens.
Speaker A:And That's.
Speaker B:And then finally.
Speaker B:I got one more.
Speaker B:I got one more.
Speaker A:No, you're right.
Speaker A:No, I was gonna.
Speaker A:I was gonna say something about haint.
Speaker A:I was actually gonna say something about it.
Speaker A:Well, because.
Speaker A:Because that's why, like, Annie, while she's trying to assess.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:What is it that we're dealing with here right now?
Speaker A:There's a little bit of a hesitation.
Speaker A:And why.
Speaker A:She's kind of, like, looking at.
Speaker A:I think it's.
Speaker A:Well, it's Omar's.
Speaker A:It's cornbread.
Speaker A:She's trying to just retain, like, as to.
Speaker A:Okay, are we dealing with a haint?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And he doesn't come in.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:You know, he's.
Speaker A:He's asking to be invited in.
Speaker A:So she's kind of trying to make that assessment.
Speaker A:Like, okay, I know it's something, like, spiritual.
Speaker A:What is.
Speaker A:What is it exactly that we're dealing with?
Speaker A:So that's.
Speaker A:There.
Speaker A:There was that insight because I was, like, looking at that, and I was like, girl, I need you to figure out this is a vampire, please.
Speaker A:So, like, during that scene, and she kept saying haint.
Speaker A:And I had no idea.
Speaker A:I don't know if the rest of you knew.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What hate was, but I was like, I'm gonna have to look this up because I'm like, I'm not gonna bring out my phone in the theater because I'm not one of those people.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:The small, small screen.
Speaker A:And I'm like, listen, you can look it up afterwards, but.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:Actually, if you heard of the show P.
Speaker E:Valley, which is actually in Mississippi, that second season was actually taking a really, like, more supernatural, spiritual turn, and one of the main characters was saying, like, it's just a hate.
Speaker E:Like, they're seeing, like, a spirit.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker E:And I was like, okay, that's why I heard it before.
Speaker E:It's really cool.
Speaker E:But love the inclusion of the Gullah, like, this, like, culture in that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Taygo.
Speaker B:But I thought.
Speaker B:I thought, what.
Speaker B:Just the depth of.
Speaker B:Of brilliance as a screenwriter and then to be able to have the vision of your writing on the screen.
Speaker B:But, you know, as a side note, the.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the way that Annie does try to figure that out, because in a way, you can see where these vampires could be haints.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But they do.
Speaker B:They don't exactly follow the lore, the African lore.
Speaker B:This one, though, I think, is going to kind of blow everybody's mind a little bit.
Speaker B:And it kind of goes in line with periods in the movie where we transcend Time, you know, especially like the, the being in the juke joint and, and having the presence of the music that, that transcends generations.
Speaker B:There are Emmett Till references in this film.
Speaker B: was lynched in Mississippi in: Speaker B:His body was recovered from the Tallahatchie river tied to a fan from a cotton gin.
Speaker B:He was murdered in a seed barn on the Sunflower river, which is the birthplace of the Delta blues.
Speaker B:And after he died, his blood was cleaned up off of the floor two times.
Speaker B:And then cottonseed was spread over the floor to cover up the blood because the stain couldn't be, couldn't be lifted.
Speaker B:And so in the film, when the twins make the transaction with the, the grand, you know, the Grand Dragon, they ask Hogwart Hogwood why, why did he wash the floor?
Speaker B:They asked him, was the floor washed?
Speaker B:Why did you wash the floor?
Speaker B:And then the brothers note that they are buying the barn, the land and the gin and everything else.
Speaker B: Carolyn Bryant did confess in: Speaker B:At the time she was referred to as one of the prettiest black haired Irish women that this one spectator had ever seen.
Speaker B: Now, we did know the truth in: Speaker B:And as it turns out, Till's murder can be attributed to the lies of an Irish vampire.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:As we go back and look at it as it were.
Speaker B: ta, even if it's transcending: Speaker B:And those are some of the, the key takeaways that we see.
Speaker B:I, I believe when we're looking at what that time period holds for us and how it works so seamlessly to bring us into that belief that these vampires are also feasible.
Speaker B:I think it was very believable that because we've created an environment where we've got the magic working for us, we've got the very, they're very much the belief systems of the people involved.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Coupled by all of the oppression and the folks that are existing within these systems naturally and organically.
Speaker B:I thought it was a perfect setting.
Speaker B:Yeah, I really did.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And with that, and we'll get in a little bit more into like Some more of the history later on, because I really want to talk about.
Speaker A:You mentioned magic.
Speaker A:So I really want to talk about the scene.
Speaker A:And y' all know what scene I'm talking about?
Speaker A:The scene in the juke joint where we're seeing all of, again, because of Sammy's gift.
Speaker A:And let me just say, like, first of all, that Miles Canton, that's his first role.
Speaker A:That's his first role.
Speaker A:And it's actually her.
Speaker A:So the singer, her, who convinced him to audition.
Speaker A:He was on tour with her, opening for her, and she convinced him to audition for that role.
Speaker A:And I'm telling you, like, that was.
Speaker A:That was the best advice, because he's just this incredible singer, this incredible actor.
Speaker A:I'm like.
Speaker A:So I was just like, you know, like, they're going, oh, my gosh, this is a newcomer.
Speaker A:Please put him in all the things.
Speaker A:Yeah, he learned it for the part.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:He learned it for the part.
Speaker E:Yeah, he's gonna be great.
Speaker A:He's going to be great.
Speaker A:So speaking about that moment.
Speaker A:So I really just want to go around the table and really.
Speaker A:And also, I think, Tego, you had some things that you wanted to share specifically about that moment.
Speaker A:Just as a, you know, as a dj, as somebody, you know, in that industry.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So I would love to hear everyone's thoughts concerning that sequence, that musical sequence.
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:Take it.
Speaker A:I'll start with you.
Speaker E:Cool.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:So, like, I was going online just trying to figure out, like, is there a list of all the musical genres and stuff that was included?
Speaker E:And there's like, nearly, like, 20, like, over 10.
Speaker E:So you have Mississippi blues, rock and roll, turntableism, hip hop, ragtime, traditional West African music, trap G, funk, rap, Beijing opera, like, traditional East African music, rhythms and blues, jazz and funk.
Speaker E:So you see this through, line through so many, like, diverse branches that are able to come together at the trunk.
Speaker E:And it's like he somehow was able to show, like, yo, we're all still connected.
Speaker E:We're all still so distinct.
Speaker E:You can hear almost all these elements all at the same time and in a fashion where it's like you'd expect them to be discordant.
Speaker E:But he's just a mix.
Speaker E:Like, that's just a blend.
Speaker E:That's just him putting all these things together.
Speaker E:And as someone who, you know, is in this hobby, profession, craft, art form, where that's the purpose, you are able to visually see how these things come together as well as audibly hear it.
Speaker E:It's just like, oh, snap.
Speaker E:Like, dude is like, I forgot.
Speaker E:I don't know how to pronounce his last name.
Speaker E:But Ludwig the sound designer, the music, I think it's your Instagram Doranson.
Speaker E:Like, yeah, yo, like, cracked.
Speaker E:Like you're a crazy good.
Speaker E:But, like, on some real stuff, it's so amazing to be able to see that and hear that at the same time.
Speaker E:And the way, again, he manipulated film to turn that scene into a music video of sorts and widen up the film so it's like you're just seeing your jaw drops and your eyes widen as it filled white.
Speaker E:It's just like, oh, my God.
Speaker E:Like, literally just blows your mind.
Speaker E:And we can even go deeper into the cultural, anthropological kind of element of it because I made a video about this saying that, like, for me, this kind of like, put this book together for me.
Speaker E:African Africanisms in America in American Culture.
Speaker A:Yeah, we'll put that in the show Notes.
Speaker E:Yeah, Holloway.
Speaker E:And it's a collection of essays talking about, like, these are the elements of African culture that were preserved, transformed, remixed, and, like, preserved within American culture.
Speaker E:And not even just like black American culture, but how it impacted all, all cultures because these things interact, bounce off each other and impact one another.
Speaker E:And in the like section about music, like, I just like went crazy with my highlighter on it.
Speaker E:One of the first things was talking about how, like, culture is the product of interaction between the past and the present.
Speaker E:That scheme was a past, present and a future altogether.
Speaker E:Right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker E:It's toughness and resiliency are determined not by a culture's ability to withstand change, but which indeed may be a sign of stagnation, not life, but its ability to react creatively and responsibly to the realities of a new situation.
Speaker E:You know, so it's like all these things are still connected.
Speaker E:All these things are branching off of each other.
Speaker E:And it's the way it's produced, not just a product at the end of the day that shows that connection.
Speaker E:It's the way we conceive the music, the way we play it, the way we have that, like, that rhythm.
Speaker E:Like, even on Perlene's scene where she's.
Speaker A:Pale, pale moon yo Pale, pale moon.
Speaker E:Yo like the mere fact that you see old boy getting stomped out to the beat that everyone is still on yeah, like that rhythm we'll see it's within all of us and connect us.
Speaker E:Even as time goes on, even as space seemingly disconnects us, but that root is still there.
Speaker E:And it's like it's one big tree.
Speaker E:And like, I.
Speaker E:I also posted the chart that kind of shows like the development of this.
Speaker E:Because, again, it's all connected.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What's the name?
Speaker A:I will.
Speaker A:We'll put it in the show notes.
Speaker A:What's the name of the book again?
Speaker E:African.
Speaker E:Africanism is an American Culture, edited by Joseph E.
Speaker E:Holloway.
Speaker E:Because it's a collection of essays, so a bunch of different writers.
Speaker E:But just like, all this stuff is connected.
Speaker C:Like, yeah, it's.
Speaker E:It's.
Speaker E:It's.
Speaker E:It's almost like narratives and conversations we see where I try to disconnect it.
Speaker E:I'm like, you're just not living in reality because it's all not the same.
Speaker E:We're not uniform.
Speaker E:We're not identical, because we can't be different histories and different times and different spaces.
Speaker E:We're still connected at the root.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker E:And that's what really like matters.
Speaker E:And that expands into a conversation of Remic feeling disconnected from his roots and trying so hard to get Sammy.
Speaker E:Because, you see, he's like, I can connect to my roots, and the branches are coming later.
Speaker E:I want that ability.
Speaker E:You know, like, it's beautiful.
Speaker E:And he managed to connect all that visually as well as, like, audibly.
Speaker E:And Kugler.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:The roof on fire was transformation flipping level.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh, Kyra, What?
Speaker A:I see you like, like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:That scene, obviously, was very powerful.
Speaker C:So for me, it just shows that Sammy was able to transcend time just like we are.
Speaker C:So, you know, like you said, Tego, there was past, current, future.
Speaker C:What I really appreciated is there was an exclusion of twerking.
Speaker C:There wasn't the exclusion of gangster rap.
Speaker C:Even though we're taught, oh, we shouldn't be singing these lyrics, we shouldn't be doing these dances.
Speaker C:This is to be ashamed of.
Speaker C:I mean, there's a place and time for everything.
Speaker C:But in general, things that we create are labeled.
Speaker C:They're beautiful when we create them.
Speaker C:But somebody gets a hold of them and tells us in the world, this is not beautiful unless it's in the hands of people who don't look like you.
Speaker C:Even though we created it, even though it came from us, it's kind of like it has to be validated in.
Speaker C:In a way.
Speaker C:And then also, Tego, you were saying that what's produced is different, but it's all connected.
Speaker C:So I even think about, like, how Sammy's father is like, that's, you know, you're sinning.
Speaker C:That's from the devil.
Speaker C:You shouldn't play the guitar.
Speaker C:Don't go with your cousins.
Speaker C:Blues and the guitar are still part of our history, and we've Created beautiful things with that.
Speaker C:So I don't necessarily think it's right to cast it as evil or say that we should not do it.
Speaker C:Obviously, everybody has their opinions about that, but there's this underlying still.
Speaker C:I believe in the black community that if it's not of the church, then you shouldn't be doing it.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker C:But a part of who we are and how we create culture is outside of the church.
Speaker E:Absolutely.
Speaker E:Like, the impact of sec.
Speaker E:Like secular music drew from spiritual music.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker E:Spiritual music drew from secular music to try and separate these.
Speaker E:It doesn't make sense.
Speaker E:It's just not how we operate.
Speaker E:Like, no.
Speaker E:And you can also see it in dance, too.
Speaker E:Like, I don't know how to pronounce it.
Speaker E:I hope.
Speaker E:Folks who are from this region, I think of the Ivory coast, the Zhao Li of the Guru tribe, the one who's like, in the whole edifice, like the mask and everything is like that footwork.
Speaker E:And then you see the scene turn.
Speaker E:You see like a dancer, like hip hop kind of.
Speaker E:I think it was like crumping or something.
Speaker E:Also kind of reminisce, like a little bit of the house too.
Speaker E:It's just like, yo, it's been passed down and preserved.
Speaker E:It's been passed down and preserved and remixed to the new and the old.
Speaker E:Like, it's.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:Beautiful.
Speaker A:Too quick.
Speaker B:Oh, Katyra, to go back to something you said that I think is very telling and meaningful.
Speaker B:Going back to.
Speaker B:One of my original comments, too, is that the movie is pulled from that black narrative, Right?
Speaker B:So that piece.
Speaker B:That piece inside the juke joint, the roof is on fire.
Speaker B:And we're seeing the past and present and current state, and we're seeing it all.
Speaker B:It is unapologetically blackness.
Speaker B:Like, that's what that is.
Speaker B:And there is no permission needed.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, there is nothing but black joy.
Speaker B:And that is what, to me, that is what that scene emanated.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not about any surveillance.
Speaker B:There's no permission.
Speaker B:It's not about anything except living out what.
Speaker B:What's innate to.
Speaker B:To where you came from and honoring that.
Speaker B:And I think one of the things that's interesting is I noticed right away we have Mary in the Duke joint.
Speaker B:She's biracial.
Speaker A:Well, well, well, she was octoroon.
Speaker A:Yeah, Octaroon.
Speaker A:So we gotta.
Speaker A:Yeah, because we gotta talk about the one drop rule.
Speaker A:Because we're.
Speaker B:Okay, we'll go back to that.
Speaker A: But because it's: Speaker A: Because it's: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, she's right.
Speaker B:So they think they.
Speaker B:They Consider her.
Speaker A:They consider her like black, right?
Speaker A:Passing, I guess.
Speaker A:Is that.
Speaker A:That, that, yeah.
Speaker A:Passing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But she's like an eighth, Right.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Before we get into that one, though, the interesting thing is the only ancestor that didn't show up was white.
Speaker B:There was no white people.
Speaker B:There was no white ancestor in that room.
Speaker B:So even if we're gonna.
Speaker B:Even if we're gonna say she's not black, then even more so, there was no white ancestor that showed up in that room.
Speaker B:And I wasn't sure then if that was because that's an acknowledgement of the appropriation that.
Speaker B:That happened around, you know, that happens around taking that music or taking that ancestry.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because the.
Speaker B:The piece too, when I was doing some research, we do see Remick out in the yard and we do hear them doing what we think is an Irish jig.
Speaker B:The dancing is Irish.
Speaker B:But what I read, and I don't know if this is true, is that all of the music, however, was.
Speaker B:Was black music.
Speaker B:So I don't.
Speaker B:I don't think what they were singing was Irish music, even though they were dancing to it.
Speaker A:Well, no, there was definitely.
Speaker A:Because he was singing.
Speaker A:He was singing an Irish folk song.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes, it's a.
Speaker A:Oh, gosh, I forgot I have it written down somewhere.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:Because it's okay.
Speaker A:Because it's been all over Tick Tock and I can't get it out of my head, but I'm like, okay, guys, this has been.
Speaker A:And it's just hilarious because I'm like, that tune has been in other films, like where I first heard it was like Sherlock Holmes or something.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But like, the fact that it's.
Speaker A:Because it's so prevalent, like in the film, it's all over Tick tock and well, there's.
Speaker D:I just want.
Speaker D:So was it two different.
Speaker D:Because the scene where Mary comes out to the vampires.
Speaker D:Yeah, they're singing a song.
Speaker A:They're singing a song that's also a folk song.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker D:Yeah, it's a well known.
Speaker D:It's okay.
Speaker D:It's.
Speaker D:It's a.
Speaker D:It's actually a really nice, well known Irish folk song as well.
Speaker A:It's will.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:Wait.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because I know there's Will you go Lasting and then there's Rocky road to Dublin.
Speaker D:Okay, so that.
Speaker D:Those are.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:So they were definitely Irish.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, they're definitely Irish folk songs.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker F:And also a brief note, tying in to what we're talking about, the heritage of the character, the heritage of Mary's character is also they're integrating the heritage of Hailee Steinfeld.
Speaker F:So that is her heritage as well.
Speaker A:She.
Speaker A:But she's also octoroon.
Speaker F:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker F:So they're.
Speaker F:It's not just the character.
Speaker F:They're actually integrating her background and putting that as part of the story and telling, you know, bringing that in as part of it.
Speaker F:And it's, it's integrating her history as well as in that too.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:I think.
Speaker F:Which is kind of interesting.
Speaker D:Well, Remic is the actual character.
Speaker D:He is fully Irish, so he.
Speaker A:So he was, he was raised in, in England, but he identifies more with his Derbyshire.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker A:Heritage.
Speaker A:So his Irish heritage.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So cuz he.
Speaker A:Jack Oconnell, who's the actor, he talks a lot about how happy he was to be in the film where he's fully celebrating like his Irish heritage.
Speaker C:As a vampire.
Speaker A:As a vampire, right, as a vampire.
Speaker A:But he, like, he gets to like, he gets to sing and dance and like.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker D:Okay, well, I just, I'm fascinated by the way where all of this is going between.
Speaker D:Because I do want to circle back to that scene again because, gosh, listening.
Speaker A:To all of you and then I have.
Speaker A:And then I have three notes about that.
Speaker D:Yes, go.
Speaker D:But to all you other brilliant folks and the layers of like all of those layers of black music and African music and the evolution of that throughout time, which is incredible.
Speaker D:It makes me.
Speaker D:I wish we could watch the scene right now because I not only want to listen to it again, I want to like make those connections again.
Speaker D:And, and also even the layers of the history there, including the Irish context within.
Speaker D:Within all of that, which I think there's definitely a connection to some of the, the actors, but there is a very real historical connection there, which I'm still learning about.
Speaker D:I also want to touch on the fact that, well, going back to Mary first, because she.
Speaker D:So during the time, during that time, we look at someone like Mary, I look at someone like, you know, Haley Steinfeld.
Speaker D:Seinfeld.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:Who.
Speaker D:I didn't, I didn't know anything about the field or I didn't know anything about her.
Speaker D:This is really my first time seeing her in a film, in anything.
Speaker D:I didn't know nothing.
Speaker D:Looks like a white woman to me.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:And then I, Well, I, I looked her up.
Speaker D:She's actually mixed with like Filipino on certain sides of her family.
Speaker D:With Filipino.
Speaker D:And so I was like, I could see that.
Speaker D:That I can see.
Speaker D:I don't see any of the black phenotype.
Speaker D:Not seeing any of that.
Speaker D:But again, Jackie, to what you were saying, because of the whole one Drop rule.
Speaker D:Specifically during that time, she would have been.
Speaker D:Yes, very much passing.
Speaker D:But had she been found out, she would have been lynched.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:Whereas today that's just not the case.
Speaker D:She's.
Speaker D:She's a white woman.
Speaker D:You know, she's a white woman in every context, especially now.
Speaker D:But during the time during.
Speaker D:At that setting and they call, you know, and they know her.
Speaker D:They grew up with her.
Speaker D:The characters grew up with Mary.
Speaker D:So she, they call, she's family.
Speaker D:She's family.
Speaker D:They say, she's family.
Speaker D:This is, you know.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because he's.
Speaker A:This is one of the more funny moments where he's like, well, how did she get in?
Speaker D:Yeah, they're like, she's with us.
Speaker D:We know her.
Speaker D:We don't know you.
Speaker D:You know, white man, Where'd you come from?
Speaker D:Yeah, so that's really, you know, and they have every right to.
Speaker D:To have their, their guard up and everything.
Speaker D:So in, in context to Mary, there's, I think that's important to highlight because again, had she been found out at the time, then she would have been killed, most likely.
Speaker D:But also back to that scene because there was.
Speaker D:There was all of the layers, which is fascinating.
Speaker D:But then there was like also the Chinese dancers and the Chinese characters.
Speaker D:That was also part of that too, which I was taken aback.
Speaker D:But I was like, oh, okay, this is.
Speaker A:We can get into the history of that as well.
Speaker D:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker D:I was just like, okay, Mr.
Speaker D:Kugler, this is very interesting.
Speaker D:And then, yeah, going into the more present, I guess, like styles of dance and music and things like that.
Speaker D:And then we also see that obviously at the, you know, later on, more at the end of the film when we see Stack and mary in their 90s get up talking to Sammy and things like that.
Speaker D:That was, that was.
Speaker D:I like that.
Speaker D:That was wild.
Speaker D:It gave me a little Spike.
Speaker D:Spike Lee kind of vibes with that one.
Speaker D:But yeah, so I just kind of want it because I think there's even more layers of that scene that could really be touched upon.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:For me, that scene like, like, it was just like I was, I had my, you know, my, my jaw was to the floor.
Speaker A:I was like looking at this scene and as, and of course, like, as she's saying, you know, it connects us to both the past.
Speaker A:And then when she says the, the.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The future, you know, incomes like the hip, you know, hip hop and everything.
Speaker A:And then I hear for me, like, the way that I almost like started break down was like I, I hearing a guitar riff because one of the genres that's also.
Speaker A:That comes from black folks, right, is rock.
Speaker A:And like growing up and being into rock and being told that, well, that's.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're less black because you love rock.
Speaker A:And although I didn't know it at the time, that black, that.
Speaker A:That rock comes from us as well.
Speaker A:Like, to hear that in a film and have that be acknowledged, like, I was just like, so moved by that.
Speaker A:And then, of course, like, you're also watching again.
Speaker B:You're.
Speaker A:You're watching the.
Speaker A:The camera just pan across the room.
Speaker A:We're seeing all the different ancestors.
Speaker A:We're hearing, you know, hearing.
Speaker A:Hearing different music we're hearing.
Speaker A:Or we're seeing all these different dances.
Speaker A:And then it shoots to the roof and it's like.
Speaker A:And the roof is on fire.
Speaker A:And then it pans out, like, even more so outside of the juke joint.
Speaker A:And so it's like.
Speaker A:And then of course, you're getting the vampires, you know, point of view where they're.
Speaker A:They're also seeing, right what.
Speaker A:What Sammy's gift is doing.
Speaker A:They're seeing the juke joint on fire.
Speaker A:And of course it's symbolic, but at the same time, it's just.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's incredible.
Speaker A:Like, what take.
Speaker A:You know, Takeo said, like, it.
Speaker A:That cinema, right.
Speaker A:Like, that's.
Speaker A:That right there is why, like, one of the many reasons why I became a filmmaker.
Speaker A:Like, you can do so much in this medium and it's beautiful.
Speaker A:And you.
Speaker A:He's sending.
Speaker A:He's saying so many things in this.
Speaker A:In this one scene.
Speaker A:It was just so well done, so well shot.
Speaker A:It took a couple of days, I believe, for them to shoot that entire thing, but they practiced it before they shot it.
Speaker A:And also, like, the different.
Speaker A:And I won't go too much in the weeds here because I am a tech nerd.
Speaker A:And so that probably.
Speaker A:We could just probably do a podcast just on the tech alone.
Speaker A:But the way in which it's shot it to make it more of an immersive experience for people.
Speaker A:It was shot on an IMAX camera.
Speaker A:On an IMAX camera and a Panasonic, which is like the widest, you know, aspect ratio that you can get while watching a film.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But then also having it shot on an IMAX camera gives you more of the actual picture.
Speaker A:So I just thought that was interesting.
Speaker E:What.
Speaker A:But then also too to go back to.
Speaker A:So I think Tyra, you had mentioned it first was about, like, how in church, you know, secular music is labeled as devil music.
Speaker A:Well, Ryan, Coogler had a note about that.
Speaker A:So in an interview he talks about how it was labeled.
Speaker A:It was all about money because it was labeled as devil's music.
Speaker A:Because those same people who would go to the juke joint the night before would show up on Sunday and.
Speaker A:And wouldn't have money to give to the offering.
Speaker A:Oh, that.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker A:Yo, I was like, I screamed when I heard that.
Speaker A:I'm like, yo, that makes so much sense.
Speaker A:That's crazy.
Speaker A:Door ushers like, close the door.
Speaker A:Close the doors.
Speaker A:Okay, so for those of you who are not familiar.
Speaker A:So I'm referencing.
Speaker A:Okay, so Marvin said SAP, who is a.
Speaker A:He's a mega church pastor, one just go watch, please go find the video.
Speaker A:Because it is insane basically to like he's.
Speaker A:He's giving the altar call and so he's like asking people to give offering.
Speaker A:And so of course offering is supposed to be something that's freely given, not something that's forced upon people.
Speaker A:So he tells people, no, we're going to.
Speaker A:We're going to, you know, get whatever he's trying to, whatever the amount of money.
Speaker A:40K.
Speaker A:Okay, 40K.
Speaker A:40K is crazy.
Speaker A:40K.
Speaker A:And he's telling the ushers to close the door so that no one leaves.
Speaker A:And no one leaves.
Speaker A:Then comes back and says after.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The Internet blew him up and.
Speaker A:And like basically dragged him.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:He was like, oh no.
Speaker A:But that like anyone could just leave.
Speaker A:And I'm like, then why would you close the door?
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:That doesn't make sense.
Speaker A:So, yeah, so this whole thing about like it being devil's music and the fact that it's because they didn't have money left to give to offering was.
Speaker A:It was a lot.
Speaker A:It was, it was a lot to.
Speaker A:To get.
Speaker A:And I forgot what the other note I had just specifically about that scene, but I just, I just thought that was interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:Kind of like.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:Sticking on that point about sort of like that contradiction within the church or like what is seen as holy versus what's labeled as devilish and everything.
Speaker E:I found it visually interesting.
Speaker E:I think when I remember my note, dad was kind of telling him, like, hey, you're going to be attracting the devil with that music, you better be careful or whatever.
Speaker E:And I was like, his eyes looked like really shy, like looked funny.
Speaker E:And on my second watching, I was kind of like it kind of.
Speaker E:Not to say that the dad was a vampire, but I feel like there's.
Speaker E:I don't know, there's like a specific lighting choice might be bugging where it's just like, okay, you kind of got that glow in your eyes a little bit, too.
Speaker E:So is that kind of him like, Coogler kind of saying, like, hey, man, go ahead.
Speaker E:We got.
Speaker E:Yeah, we got stuff going on in the church as well.
Speaker E:Let's not all be like, everything is 100 holy upright within these structures as well.
Speaker E:Because how many people have experiences?
Speaker E:Yeah, it's just like, all right.
Speaker E:Like, you know.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:Katara, I know you were.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:I was gonna say, I thought that Perlene also had the look in her eye when she was performing on the stage.
Speaker C:I kind of got that from her.
Speaker C:And then, of course, when she didn't want to either, I was like, the.
Speaker A:Way that we were all yelling in the theater, like, girl, just eat it.
Speaker A:Just eat it.
Speaker A:Or do we have a problem?
Speaker C:And then the other connection I was thinking about is, like, the snake.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Like, because snakes can have that kind of glare to their eye.
Speaker C:So I know one of the questions was about foreshadowing that, and I would say say yes to that.
Speaker C:I'm sorry to skip ahead.
Speaker A:No, you're okay.
Speaker C:But it made me think about the venom of snakes and the venom of vampires.
Speaker C:So I definitely think that was a foreshadowing.
Speaker C:And then also that was the scene where I think it was Smoke said, you know, Sammy watch Stacks back because he don't know how to watch his own back.
Speaker C:And that made me think about his connection to Mary, and essentially, she's the one who killed him, even though that was, like, someone he loved.
Speaker C:Someone who loved him.
Speaker C:So I think the snake was foreshadowing for many things.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What do you think about.
Speaker B:So since we started talking about the secular music and the role of Christianity, I think what's interesting to bring up, too, is that, I mean, Africans were not Christian.
Speaker B:I mean, that's something that colonialism did.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And so in that way, it was forced assimilation, which is interesting, because there is that theme, too.
Speaker B:Do you think there was some conscious commentary there?
Speaker C:I definitely.
Speaker C:Oh, go ahead.
Speaker B:No, no.
Speaker B:Yeah, please.
Speaker C:I was gonna say, I definitely think there is.
Speaker C:That was intentional.
Speaker C:So even, like, when Sammy started praying, they started praying with him.
Speaker A:I was like, we don't care.
Speaker C:We know the prayer too.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:It was a part of.
Speaker A:They got that through Holland.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So, yeah, it was a part of the plan to keep them, I guess.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Oppressed.
Speaker C:That's what it is.
Speaker C:So I definitely think that was intentional.
Speaker C:To answer that question, there's.
Speaker B:You have the juxtaposition of Christianity.
Speaker B:And then you have Annie, right.
Speaker B:Who's.
Speaker B:Who's showing us that you have that African.
Speaker B:But who saved them.
Speaker B:Annie saved them.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:It wasn't a preacher.
Speaker B:Well, so.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker D:No, that's true.
Speaker A:That is true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I was going to say because.
Speaker A:Oh, gosh, there's.
Speaker A:Because there's so many.
Speaker A:There's so many different things that I was like.
Speaker A:I just want to make sure I'm not.
Speaker A:We're not.
Speaker A:We're also not missing this because with.
Speaker A:With symbols.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:When you guys were talking earlier, just like a few moments ago about, you know, when we were talking about, you know, close.
Speaker A:Close the doors and everything like that, and, you know, how.
Speaker A:How Christianity, you know, sort of, like, operates in this whole.
Speaker A:You know, we're supposed to be serving the people, but really, like, you know, there's all these, like, different things around, especially American Christianity.
Speaker A:So someone brought it to my attention.
Speaker A:The first scene when we're seeing Sammy driving into, you know what the.
Speaker A:The scene that would be repeated later when he's arriving at the church and he's.
Speaker A:And he opens the doors.
Speaker A:Now, my thought process is like, if you see someone bloodied and beaten at your door, and your first response is to use it as part of your sermon, that's nuts.
Speaker A:That's kind of crazy.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:But then someone.
Speaker A:Now, the thing that someone brought to my attention was, do you remember, like, the flashes?
Speaker A:Like, in the beginning, there were flashes of scenes.
Speaker A:So at that same point.
Speaker A:At that same point, a flash happens.
Speaker A:That flash is Remik.
Speaker A:So it's comparing the pastor to Remik in that situation.
Speaker A:They're two sides of the same coin.
Speaker A:And I just thought that that was.
Speaker A:I was like.
Speaker A:I forgot about the flashes because I was, like, trying to make.
Speaker A:Because it's the first.
Speaker A:It's my first time watching it.
Speaker A:And so I'm like, wait, what's.
Speaker A:What's the random, like, flash that we're getting in the beginning?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Oh, I was just gonna mention, going back to hoodoo and voodoo, that those were villainized.
Speaker C:Yeah, those were.
Speaker C:We were taught that that was taboo, especially voodoo.
Speaker C:I'm sure hoodoo.
Speaker C:But I know voodoo has a very negative connotation.
Speaker C:I don't know if it's changed much, but that was part of, again, oppression.
Speaker C:So we don't want you to practice this.
Speaker C:We have Christianity for you.
Speaker C:So that came to mind when I was just thinking about, you know, things that were taken from us and replaced with what we were taught was the right way.
Speaker A:And there's a two part.
Speaker A:There's a two part document, there's a two part documentary that I remember watching, like, years ago that was produced by pbs.
Speaker A:And it's about.
Speaker A:Specifically about the black church.
Speaker A:But it talks about how when black Americans, when they're getting Christianity, like, forced upon that.
Speaker A:What happens is.
Speaker A:What happens is very interesting.
Speaker A:There's the mix of those same practices, the African practices with Christianity, which is how you get like something like in gospel with the call and response and then the way that they're praising, right?
Speaker A:That's how you get gospel.
Speaker A:So it's just this very interesting thing of, like, as it's being right, as it's being demonized, as it's, you know, being, you know, told that this is paganism.
Speaker A:This is, you know, all these things.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:What happens, though, out of that is you're getting gospel.
Speaker A:Something that is right, is like, about praising God.
Speaker A:But at the same time, though, the roots of it are in African spiritual practices.
Speaker A:So I just thought that.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:And I'm saying this as a Christian, like, that I thought was very.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I thought that was very interesting.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that was my other note about.
Speaker E:No, yeah, that's.
Speaker E:That's definitely something brought up in this book.
Speaker E:Again, it's like no one came as a blank slate.
Speaker E:Like, these things again were mixed together, remixed, and turned into the things we see today.
Speaker E:Like, there's a reason why those runs and like, those musical scores in the church, the ones I can literally just, like, you know they're about to go crazy, right?
Speaker E:For like 10 minutes, for real.
Speaker E:It's like, there's a reason you don't see that in other churches.
Speaker A:Like, you go to the white church.
Speaker A:They're not doing that.
Speaker A:I'm telling you that right now.
Speaker B:What are you trying to say about the Catholic.
Speaker F:Not a lot of electricity.
Speaker A:Courtney.
Speaker A:Courtney is not.
Speaker A:Courtney is not a Catholic.
Speaker A:Courtney is not.
Speaker B:No, I was raised.
Speaker B:I was raised.
Speaker B:I do not.
Speaker B:I am.
Speaker B:I am a former.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:No, no, like.
Speaker E:Like, most definitely like that.
Speaker E:That.
Speaker E:That's what, again, Delta Slim was saying before Sammy went on with that scene, he was like, you know, Christianity, that was something that was imposed.
Speaker E:And even in that imposition, there was that remixing and that, like, coalescing with what came before and turned into what it is.
Speaker E:But the blues, that's something that came from home.
Speaker E:And I think for me, that's what really made the scene, like, just the thing that came.
Speaker E:That.
Speaker E:That.
Speaker E:That brought tears to my eyes.
Speaker E:Because he was like, yo, what we do with this Music that makes it so coveted, that makes it so magical, that makes it so powerful.
Speaker E:It's what came with us.
Speaker E:It's something that comes like again from those deeper roots, that soil that like touches everything that we do.
Speaker E:And it was so cool to see.
Speaker E:Like, it's, he's like, it's deep, it's big.
Speaker E:Like there's no other way to describe it.
Speaker B:Yeah, take it.
Speaker B:It's like the only time where there, there's no oppression on the people is like when the music is playing.
Speaker B:Like when that scene happens and the music is playing, like it's the only, the only time.
Speaker B:And you know, we see that at the end of the movie when he's like, hey, that was the best day I've ever had.
Speaker E:All trauma aside.
Speaker E:Best day of my life.
Speaker A:Best day of my life.
Speaker B:I almost died.
Speaker B:You know, I watched all my friends get killed.
Speaker A:But for a moment, they were free.
Speaker E:For a moment in that second post credit scene where Sammy's talking and remixing again into blues.
Speaker E:This little light of mine.
Speaker E:It's like his light shines so bright in that room, it literally blew the walls off.
Speaker E:It burned the roof down.
Speaker E:Like that's something.
Speaker E:That's his gift, that's something within him and his tradition and that's.
Speaker E:It's that bigger and that deeper that like, nothing can contain it.
Speaker E:It brings everything together and nothing can contain it.
Speaker E:And that's why, like, this conversation had me think about that second scene again, because I'm like, you know what?
Speaker E:He literally burned a room down.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:How powerful that was.
Speaker A:Burned the house?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Kyra, you Were you about to say something?
Speaker C:I was not to.
Speaker C:To dampen.
Speaker C:But the one thing that comes to mind for me is when Stack is.
Speaker C:He's turned and he says, this isn't a juke joint, this is a slaughterhouse.
Speaker C:So for me, it's like we have this false sense of freedom when we get these things that are ours.
Speaker C:What happens to them?
Speaker C:Yes, they're destroyed.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Sometimes by us, sometimes by others.
Speaker C:Yeah, but it's still a false sense of like, yeah, we had it good for about 30 minutes.
Speaker B:Yeah, but Katyra, it's not.
Speaker B:It's not destroyed by blackness, it's destroyed by white supremacy.
Speaker B:And I think that was also a current that runs through the movie too.
Speaker B:Like we are all suffering under white supremacy.
Speaker B:White, black, Chinese, it doesn't matter.
Speaker B:We are all suffering.
Speaker B:So there was a part of me that did feel for Remick, even though, you know, he did have ulterior motives.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker B:There was definitely a piece where, you know, he had also experienced some sort of oppression.
Speaker B:Whether this is over in his.
Speaker B:In his motherland or, you know, other things.
Speaker B:But there's.
Speaker B:There's this through line where nobody's benefiting under the system.
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker D:Can I.
Speaker D:Yeah, go for it.
Speaker D:I just want to know.
Speaker D:I'm just.
Speaker D:I'm really so deep in thought with all of this, because I think.
Speaker D:Ooh.
Speaker D:I think I'm kind of coming to this realization.
Speaker D:Speaking on the layers of.
Speaker D:And I think colonialism is definitely part of that.
Speaker D:What you're touching on, Courtney, but the theme of being saved, especially in this film.
Speaker D:And what is it that does save them?
Speaker D:Because I think Katara.
Speaker D:Katara 100.
Speaker D:When you were talking about Annie.
Speaker D:Yeah, sorry, who?
Speaker D:The hoodoo voodoo.
Speaker D:Because Annie absolutely is the one who is trying and the most successfully trying to save them.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:She's the one who figures out that it is vampires that.
Speaker D:That.
Speaker D:That is attacking them.
Speaker D:That is they're turning into vampires.
Speaker D:She's the one who knew exactly what they needed.
Speaker D:The garlic, the silver, the stakes, whatever it was.
Speaker D:She's the she.
Speaker D:I mean.
Speaker D:I mean, you could tell she was the most spiritually in tune person there besides.
Speaker D:And I.
Speaker D:We gotta talk about the Choctaw who.
Speaker A:Yo, we're gonna get to that in a second.
Speaker E:Okay.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:Who made just a little bit of.
Speaker D:A little appearance and then poof.
Speaker D:Vanished.
Speaker D:But that appearance, like, really spoke volumes, because the tone.
Speaker D:It really did set the tone.
Speaker D:And who.
Speaker D:Who were the.
Speaker D:The characters, the people that I think really knew best as to what evil was, was encroaching, no matter the.
Speaker D:The.
Speaker D:I guess, the intent or why this evil was there.
Speaker D:Because I think Courtney, you're right.
Speaker D:Remick definitely had.
Speaker D:If you want, he had alternative motives.
Speaker D:And also, I guess if you want to add the layer of, like, a sympathetic villain and why.
Speaker D:You know, that sort of thing?
Speaker D:Because he.
Speaker D:The Irish were also, we know, historically, were colonized by the British and dealt with that.
Speaker D:And so there's definitely that connection as well.
Speaker D:But, yeah, this idea of what does it mean to be saved?
Speaker D:And I think that scene where we were seeing Sammy and Remick and he's kind of like, killing him, baptizing him.
Speaker D:I don't.
Speaker D:That grapple, you know, back and forth.
Speaker E:It was so funny because there are some folks on my second viewing who were like, oh, my God, he had to say the Lord's Prayer.
Speaker E:And then Samuel started saying the Lord's Prayer.
Speaker E:And they're like, yeah, you got It.
Speaker E:That's how you do it.
Speaker E:And then Remick started saying it, and it was quiet.
Speaker E:Oh.
Speaker E:And then, like, the dark baptism, and I was like, oh.
Speaker D:I was like.
Speaker E:Like this.
Speaker E:It was like, oh, my God.
Speaker E:Like, it was crazy with, like, just the.
Speaker E:The conversation around this type of stuff about, like.
Speaker E:But.
Speaker E:Oh, man.
Speaker E:Like, I can't even articulate it.
Speaker E:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker F:Also, side note, who doesn't want to see the Choctaw vampire?
Speaker A:Okay, listen, I got to say.
Speaker A:I got to say.
Speaker F:I got to say, it's going to be so good.
Speaker F:Who doesn't want to say that?
Speaker A:Listen, let me.
Speaker A:Let me direct.
Speaker A:No, I'm kidding.
Speaker A:I just want.
Speaker A:No, yeah, yeah, we will.
Speaker A:No, I.
Speaker A:First of all, the fact that.
Speaker A:Okay, remix.
Speaker A:Remic's entrance into the film is literally coming, like, from.
Speaker A:He's coming from above, like, into frame, and he's running.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:From them.
Speaker A:So I'm like, what were the Choctaw doing for you to be running like hell like this?
Speaker D:It was the sun.
Speaker D:The sunlight, too.
Speaker A:Well, was the sunlight, too.
Speaker A:But also, like, he's right.
Speaker A:He's though.
Speaker E:Again, they catch me, I'm cooked.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Literally.
Speaker A:Literally.
Speaker A:So that's why I'm like, I need.
Speaker A:I need a prequel.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I need the Choctaw.
Speaker A:The Choctaw vampire hunters.
Speaker A:I need to know.
Speaker A:But, yeah, but also, I did have.
Speaker A:I did have a question, and I know Courtney has the answer to this with seeing the Choctaw.
Speaker A:I did for a moment, because I was.
Speaker A:I remember talking to Muna about this after the film was like, why is it.
Speaker A:I mean, we're all here for indigenous representation.
Speaker C:Let's go.
Speaker A:But why.
Speaker A:Why did we only see them for a short period of time?
Speaker A:And Courtney actually has a.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Historical.
Speaker B:You should ask that question.
Speaker B:I also do want to point out that.
Speaker B:And I know Katay Road, you pointed out that, you know, hoodoo and voodoo was.
Speaker B:Was villainized, and hoodoo, as it got intermixed and intermingled, was made up of not just an African origin, but also Native American origin.
Speaker B:So there was a lot of mixing and mingling there.
Speaker B:But if we think about.
Speaker B:Again, because of our brilliant director, screenwriter Kugler here, I believe that the Choctaw, if we look historically, their ancestral homelands are in Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana.
Speaker B: So in the: Speaker B:We know that time period as the Trail of Tears.
Speaker B:There were Many Trail of Tears.
Speaker B:But this is one individual Trail of Tears.
Speaker B:And then some Choctaws did stay.
Speaker B:Some of them avoided removal.
Speaker B:Some did receive land allotments.
Speaker B:Some did have some special exemptions.
Speaker B: But by: Speaker B:They were living in poverty.
Speaker B:They had limited access to education and healthcare.
Speaker B:They were also suffering under the systematic discrimination of Jim Crow.
Speaker B:But they also were living as tenant farmers, sharecroppers.
Speaker B:They were working on plantations.
Speaker B:So my thought was they were introduced to the movie just long enough to show that their culture had some sort of integration, but quickly displaced, just like in real life, in history.
Speaker B:They were not participating in society.
Speaker B:They were not part of the general stores.
Speaker B:You know, we clearly see the delineation in the segregation where we have the Chinese moving freely between both.
Speaker B:But this is not a place for indigenous people.
Speaker B:Majority of them were removed from that area, from the Delta.
Speaker B:But those that were left did settle in the Delta.
Speaker B:So I think it was just a matter of let's acknowledge that.
Speaker B:I mean, these are the original peoples of the land.
Speaker B:So there's going to be.
Speaker B:Especially when we're talking about enslaved people who are also connected to the land.
Speaker B:And then we talk about European colonialism and settlers.
Speaker B:They are everything in their power to be removed from the land.
Speaker B:I mean, they work the land because it's money, but they're not connected to the land.
Speaker A:Right, right, right, right.
Speaker B:So I think there's that connection.
Speaker B:And I think that ultimately they did know how to defeat vampires.
Speaker B:But I think when they were like, all right, you're on your own.
Speaker B:We're out.
Speaker B:Like these.
Speaker A:Like, you know, we tried to tell you.
Speaker A:We tried to tell you, but, yeah, we're out.
Speaker B:So we're not.
Speaker B:We're not.
Speaker B:We're not Ken here.
Speaker B:Like, it's clear that you ain't.
Speaker B:You ain't got nothing for me here.
Speaker B:So we're out.
Speaker A:You don't want us around.
Speaker B:So we're.
Speaker A:We're out.
Speaker D:And here and here, I'm thinking they were just the most reasonably minded people and knew what was up.
Speaker D:And I think they are.
Speaker B:But at the same time, I think it's.
Speaker B:And when we.
Speaker B:And you know what really.
Speaker B:What really tips me off to this kind of opinion was when I was watching the film, we see the white woman when.
Speaker B:When Remick lands on the door, I'm getting chased by Indians.
Speaker B:She's like, well, there's no Indians here.
Speaker B:There haven't been Indians here forever.
Speaker B:Like, Right.
Speaker B:So, you know, she kind of tips Us off to that time period.
Speaker B:Like, why would you be being, you know, why are you being chased by Indians?
Speaker B:Why are Indians chasing you?
Speaker B:And so, you know, it just kind of sets the stage for, you know, this historical accuracy that I'm just really loving in this film.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That again, makes us really able to believe what we're seeing.
Speaker B:So that's, that's kind of where I was going with that hypothesis.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:Just real quick, real quick, Ryan Coogler.
Speaker D:That does not mean we just, we still want that indigenous vampires movie.
Speaker D:We need that, please, just in case.
Speaker D:If you ever get, if you ever.
Speaker A:Get, you know, for real.
Speaker E:Good.
Speaker A:Yes, Seriously, I, I need the Choctaw vampire hunter movie now.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So I think what we're going to have to do is obviously make a part two, because we haven't even.
Speaker F:I think we're already in two parts.
Speaker F:I mean, this, this is going so well.
Speaker A:I love this.
Speaker A:No, listen, there are so many things that we did not get to.
Speaker C:Seven hours movie.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:We, we didn't get to.
Speaker A:First of all, Grace.
Speaker A:That whole scene with Grace.
Speaker A:We didn't get to.
Speaker A:I mean, of course.
Speaker A:And also, again, also talking about the Chinese American presence in the Mississippi Delta.
Speaker A:I mean, there's so much that's in this film.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker F:So the Robert Johnson myth.
Speaker C:Oh, yes.
Speaker F:It's like such a core of the story, the whole Robert Johnson myth too.
Speaker A:Okay, someone explain to me what that.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:So Robert Johnson, he was a musician.
Speaker C:I think it was guitar.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Obviously guitar.
Speaker C:So he wasn't very good at it.
Speaker C:Naturally.
Speaker C:So the story is that he traded his soul to get that talent.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:To play the guitar as well as he did later on in life.
Speaker C:And I, I don't remember if he was connected to Hoodoo as well.
Speaker F:He died at 27.
Speaker F:Like a lot of famous musicians too.
Speaker F:So it's a, it's like part of the core of the story is like Sammy's kind of the Robert Johnson stand in.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker F:And it is like that's a whole thing.
Speaker F:And that's kind of the core of like that angle of the story.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker F:Which is like, that's a great one to dive into later too.
Speaker F:Especially somebody that knows that part of the music well.
Speaker C:And I think it was a great connection.
Speaker C:That buddy guy was the older Sammy as well.
Speaker C:Like, it just shows how much Sammy transcends like, you know, and that.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker C:You know.
Speaker A:And also, and also we got a plus size dark skinned love interest.
Speaker A:Like, come on, let's go.
Speaker F:And we, we didn't get a Chance to talk about how sexy the movie was.
Speaker F:It was.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, but wait, but yes, yes, but also two Michael B.
Speaker A:Jordans.
Speaker C:No, that's not what I was going to say.
Speaker A:No, no, no, no, please, Kyra, Katara.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:I think I see.
Speaker A:I don't think I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker A:But please, for the audience, I said.
Speaker C:What is all this reference to oral sex?
Speaker C:Listen, listen, I'm sure what's happening.
Speaker C:I'm pretty sure they were not talking about.
Speaker A:Talking about the Real Eaters this way.
Speaker C:What is that about?
Speaker B:I had a theory on that.
Speaker B:I had a theory.
Speaker B:I had a theory because my theory is that it was.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker B:It was to combat the stereotypes of black men as being aggressive, sexually aggressive.
Speaker A:You know what, though?
Speaker A:And also too, to that point.
Speaker A:To that point, because here, here's the thing.
Speaker A:I was like, man, did y' all are really committing to this.
Speaker A:But it's the false of the.
Speaker A:But wait, hold on.
Speaker A:It's also that in more ways than one.
Speaker A:But also the fact that.
Speaker A:Also the fact that after 8 o' clock for Perlene, she goes ham on Pale Pale Moon.
Speaker A:I'm like, so.
Speaker A:So someone said, I'm like, so, so related.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So here's the thing.
Speaker A:This is what they took from that.
Speaker A:And I was just like, you know what?
Speaker A:I agree.
Speaker A:Hell yeah.
Speaker A:The thing is, is that.
Speaker A:So the pleasure of black women is linked to things working for everybody.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And I was like, you know what?
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:You nailed it.
Speaker A:Yes, but there's just like.
Speaker A:Yeah, but.
Speaker A:Yeah, but going back to real quick.
Speaker A:And then we will definitely have to do part two for this.
Speaker A:But, but like going back to again, Annie, someone who is not seen as someone who is conventionally beautiful or even given that role of being the love interest.
Speaker C:Yeah, I was just gonna counter that.
Speaker C:Well, not counter it, but say that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:In.
Speaker C:In our time, there was this obsession with the chemistry between Mary.
Speaker C:What's her real name, Michael B.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker A:Didn'T care about that.
Speaker C:And it was completely ignored the fact that he had a whole nother love, you know, love interest.
Speaker C:But because we're accustomed to seeing fair skin with darker skin, etc, that's the.
Speaker C:The buzz about the sexual tension in the movies.
Speaker A:But you know what?
Speaker A:As more as after the movie came out, like, at first I was seeing like on the press tour, I was seeing this whole push for like Haley and Michael.
Speaker A:But then after the film, that's when you starting to see more marketing around Wumi and.
Speaker A:And Michael.
Speaker A:So there's Ike.
Speaker A:Because there's high key, right?
Speaker A:And because there was also that whole, like, there's that street.
Speaker A:I forget who does it.
Speaker A:They're like, they go on, they do these street interviews and they ask couples, like, how they first met.
Speaker A:And so when they did the one with Mumi and Michael, right, it was to promote the film, obviously.
Speaker A:But their chemistry, Their chemistry on the screen and off screen is just like nothing else.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:I was just also going to point out Pearlene.
Speaker C:I think her real name is Jamie.
Speaker A:Yes, Jamie.
Speaker C:Even her.
Speaker A:Even her.
Speaker C:When she came on screen, at first I was like, who is this?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:I was like, she's.
Speaker A:She's gorgeous.
Speaker F:The fight, the fire that they.
Speaker F:I mean, the fire that they brought on the screen was just like.
Speaker F:It was magnetic.
Speaker F:Every moment they were on the screen is like, you just can't tear your eyes away from them.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Pearline.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:She's also someone who is.
Speaker A:I mean, she is.
Speaker A:She is gorgeous.
Speaker A:She's somebody who, again, right.
Speaker A:Given how movies have been, right, that's usually the person that is often seen, like, as the traditional, you know, love interest.
Speaker A:But then we have, again, we have someone like Annie.
Speaker A:Like, I was just like, so, like, excited about that because we don't get.
Speaker E:It if y' all wasn't knowing.
Speaker E:Since Lovecraft.
Speaker E:Country.
Speaker A:Oh, my God, Lovecraft.
Speaker A:She stops the show every single time.
Speaker A:Like, she was incredible.
Speaker E:Great actress.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker E:Great actress.
Speaker B:I do want to add too, that Annie, as a.
Speaker B:As a love interest, as a main focal point, I think her.
Speaker B:She transcends race also and can speak to, you know, being that representation for women in a lot of different ways.
Speaker B:You know, I was, you know, immediately identified with her also at a lot of levels for her strength, for.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Her size not being representative of what that ideal American beauty is.
Speaker C:Her hair.
Speaker B:Her conviction.
Speaker A:Her hair.
Speaker A:Yeah, her hair.
Speaker B:Her natural hair.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker A:What more.
Speaker A:I feel like you had more to say.
Speaker C:Disagreeing with what you're saying, Courtney.
Speaker C:Her hair, her size, and also just pointing to the fact that she's not even a typical plus size.
Speaker C:Like 12, 14.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:She's probably, I don't know, maybe an 18, 20.
Speaker C:So even the diversity of plus size.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:She's on a different spectrum.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:And I just, you know, obviously appreciated that.
Speaker C:And even her dress, you know, she.
Speaker C:She didn't have the, you know, fancy frills, but that didn't make her any less appealing.
Speaker C:She was just her presence.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker E:That scene where she was talking to smoke, it's like, you don't know how much I've been praying for you.
Speaker E:You don't know how much this hoodoo has been working to protect you.
Speaker E:And you can literally hear the sound just, like, swell up.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:The sound.
Speaker E:You're not messing with someone who is like, like not someone to take as a joke.
Speaker A:Right, Right.
Speaker E:Like, this is someone who, like, stands on business and it's just like just, Just an amazing character.
Speaker E:Like, just an amazing character.
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't.
Speaker B:And I think that's believable.
Speaker B:And I think that we don't.
Speaker B: d a white woman back there in: Speaker B:I wouldn't believe that.
Speaker B:We just.
Speaker B:We weren't.
Speaker B:We weren't.
Speaker B:We weren't.
Speaker B:We weren't cut from that same cloth.
Speaker B:Yeah, I would not believe that's putting it out there.
Speaker A:Anyone else have any other quick thoughts before we wrap?
Speaker A:And because I would love to see you for part two because there's so much in this film.
Speaker B:Part three, Part four.
Speaker A:No, just part two.
Speaker A:Just part two.
Speaker A:At that point it becomes just.
Speaker A:Yeah, no.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker D:We got to start with why this movie is so sexy.
Speaker D:We got to start right there.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:But I.
Speaker B:Do.
Speaker D:I.
Speaker D:Besides the.
Speaker D:I think the.
Speaker D:And you know, and we gotta also.
Speaker D:We haven't touched upon like the whole idea of what makes a vampire film.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:Because the traditional vampire film and, and why vampires are usually sexy, I guess, in their own way.
Speaker D:And what makes this film a sort of a different vampire Watch.
Speaker A:Interview with the Vampire.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, the series.
Speaker A:The series.
Speaker E:The series Goaded.
Speaker B:Goaded.
Speaker D:And I would love to touch upon actually more of the romantic.
Speaker D:These relationships between Stack and Mary and then Smoke and Annie because they're both really powerful and interesting in their own way.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker D:Which is so.
Speaker D:And it's just.
Speaker D:It boggles the mind that it's like this one actor playing these two characters with these two different, you know, very different women and what they kind of represent in this film and the, the.
Speaker D:The vulnerability behind all of that.
Speaker A:So, okay, so real quick, shout outs for everyone.
Speaker A:You know, do you have any shout outs?
Speaker A:Any upcoming projects, events, anything like that?
Speaker A:Of course.
Speaker A:We will put all this information in the show notes for our listeners and viewers to be able to access later on to support you.
Speaker A:But so we will start.
Speaker A:Start with Tego.
Speaker A:Do you have any upcoming events, projects, anything like that or where people can find you?
Speaker E:Events and projects?
Speaker E:I mean, hit me up on IG at DJ Tag, same way on TikTok.
Speaker E:I'm in the planning phase right now.
Speaker E:But hopefully this summer is going to be a time going to be burning, burning the roof down in my own type of stuff.
Speaker E:So in due time this again, this movie definitely reinvigorated me and my artistry.
Speaker E:So hopefully Shout out Coogler.
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:Katara.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:So I am an essayist for the in this Moment chat book.
Speaker C:So the launch takes place on May 19th.
Speaker C:I'm the essay is for Christopher Coles.
Speaker C:He is he's an interpreter, has the highest licensure you can possibly have as an ASL interpreter.
Speaker C:But that is the 19th at 6:30 at George Eastman Museum and I'm also co hosting a master class right at it published.
Speaker C:For those of you looking to publish a book on June 7th at 1pm and that is zoom, you can visit my website atlove the number4words.com for more information.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Where they where can they find you.
Speaker C:On social oh, at Kyra Poland on Instagram.
Speaker C:I'm the only kyra Poland on LinkedIn so you can find me there.
Speaker C:Also Kyra Poly trolling on Facebook and I have a Love for Words business page on LinkedIn and also on Facebook.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:And Muna, let's see.
Speaker D:I guess I'll plug that.
Speaker D:The Encampments film is going to be shown tomorrow at the Little Theater.
Speaker D:So please, you know, come show up for that tomorrow and also Saturday anytime that there is any sort of documentary or film based on the Palestinian movement, please be on the lookout for that.
Speaker D:Usually the Little Theater is more than supportive of showing those, those types of representations and films when they're kind of hard to to stream and and come across.
Speaker D:I am currently trying to do rallies and organizing with Speak up four with the Number Four Palestine.
Speaker D:We have a Instagram page on there.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:And anytime our Voices project is more than generous to have me work alongside Jackie Courtney.
Speaker D:Yeah, I'm about it.
Speaker D:So yeah.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Well, thank you all so much.
Speaker A:We'll definitely have to have you back for part two and in other future films, of course, if there are any films that again center Black, brown or indigenous peoples, you know, if there's a film that you're that does that for and then that you really enjoy and you're like, everyone must know about this film.
Speaker A:We got to talk about this film.
Speaker A:Definitely let us know.
Speaker A:We'd love to have y' all back.
Speaker A:And I would thank you all once again for agreeing to come on the podcast and talk about this film.
Speaker A:And I want to thank all of our guests of course for you know.
Speaker A:Or yeah guests for coming and then Also to our listeners, we will put everything, you know, all the info that was shared here and where you can find each of our guests in our show.
Speaker A:Notes to our viewers and listeners.
Speaker A:Thank you again for your support of our Voices project and the Representation in Cinema podcast.
Speaker A:See all that talking.
Speaker A:I'm just getting like, again, I'm, I'm getting tongue tied over my words here because we talked about so much in this podcast today.
Speaker A:Packed.
Speaker A:This is why we're doing a part two.
Speaker A:Anyway, you can find us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and Blue Sky.
Speaker A:You can go visit our website@ourvoicesproject.com for more information about what we do.
Speaker A:You can also sign up for our newsletter there to be the first to get notifications about new podcast episodes and also about projects because again, we are a production company.
Speaker A:We do have a few films out there as well as films that we're working on.
Speaker A:We're always working.
Speaker A:We are always working.
Speaker A:You can listen to this episode and others under Representation in Cinema on any of the platforms and then again that you listen to your favorite podcasts or you can listen to all of our episodes on our website at our voices project.com forward slash podcast.
Speaker A:This has been Jackie McGriff and Courtney Shelf, your hosts for this episode of Representation in Cinema of our Voices Project.
Speaker A:Thank you again for listening.
Speaker B:Thank you everybody.
Speaker C:This is a presentation of the Lunchadore Podcast Network.
Speaker F:Shout out to John Carpenter for the really cool for the reference that Ryan Coogler made to the garlic seed.
Speaker B:So awesome he did.
Speaker B:Jackie, Jackie.
