Paris Is Burning
Hey pod and welcome back! This is the second segment of our Black August series, where we talk about the films that highlight Black resistance, freedom fighters, and political prisoners. Black resistance comes in many forms and tonight we are diving into Paris Is Burning, directed by Jennie Livingston and released in 1990. It’s a documentary that provides a vibrant snapshot of the 1980s through the eyes of New York City’s African American and Latinx Harlem drag-ball scene. Made over seven years, Paris Is Burning offers an intimate portrait of rival fashion “houses,” from fierce contests for trophies to house mothers offering sustenance in a world rampant with homophobia, transphobia, racism, AIDS, and poverty. Featuring legendary voguers, drag queens, and trans women — including Willi Ninja, Pepper LaBeija, Dorian Corey, and Venus Xtravaganza.
Joining us on the podcast tonight is a podcast regular, Cocoa Rae David! She’s a New York-based visual artist, curator, photographer, filmmaker, and business owner of By Cocoa Rae LLC, who creates captivating portraits and art of unique and diverse people and captures their true essence. You can visit her website here and follow her on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/bycocoarae. (She’s also on TikTok under the same name.) Cocoa also has a studio, art gallery, and event space called Da Purp which you can follow here: https://www.instagram.com/da_purp. If you want to book her space for an upcoming event, art gallery or photography/videography session, you can visit Da Purp on Peerspace here: https://www.peerspace.com/pages/listings/649feb0b70383c000e8473c4.
We also have a first-timer on the podcast, Kamyrn Ehlen Jerrel. Her pronouns are she/her/we. She’s the former host of Tranos and the Lived Experience Podcast. You can follow her on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/kamrynblaque.
Wherever you’re listening from, hit that subscribe button, give us a 5-star rating, share this episode and leave a comment to let us know what you thought of tonight’s episode. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Tiktok, & Threads.
Visit ourvoicesproject.com and sign up for our newsletter for more information about what we do. We’ll be back with more episodes continuing our Black August series, including Attica (which is on YouTube) and The Stroll, which you can watch on HBO Max before tuning into our next episodes.
Chapters
00:00 Intro
07:04 Defining Community and the Role of Compassion
11:54 The Role of Compassion in Community
30:28 The Evolution & Revolutionary Nature of Ballroom Culture
37:53 Exploring Integrity in Documentary Filmmaking
41:43 The Controversy of Exploitation in 'Paris is Burning'
1:06:23 The Need for Authentic Representation in Black LGBTQIA2S+ Cinema
Mentioned in this episode:
Joe Bean Roasters
Visit joebeanroasters.com to get fresh roasted specialty coffee either by the bag or with a Perpetual Joy subscription!
Our Voices Project - Land Acknowledgement
Transcript
Hello, pod, and welcome back.
Speaker A:If this is your first time listening or watching, welcome to the Representation in Cinema podcast.
Speaker A:We talk about the films that center Black, Brown Indigenous voices, as well as on the film industry itself.
Speaker A:I'm Jackie McGriff, your host and the founder, director and co producer at Our Voices Project, a production company that shares the stories and lived experiences of Black, Brown and Indigenous peoples through visual storytelling and truth telling.
Speaker A:We are community engaged filmmakers who firmly believe that you cannot center the stories of Black, Brown Indigenous peoples without also being in community and in solidarity with them.
Speaker A:If you're watching this on YouTube, I say this every single week.
Speaker A:Make sure you hit that subscribe button as well as the little bell to get notified about when new episodes drop.
Speaker A:If you are listening on your preferred podcast platform, hit that follow button.
Speaker A:And if you enjoy tonight's episode, please rate us five stars and leave a comment letting us know your thoughts.
Speaker A:This is the second segment of our Black August series where we talk about the films that highlight Black resistance, freedom fighters and political prisoners.
Speaker A:Black resistance comes in many forms.
Speaker A:Forms.
Speaker A:And tonight we are diving into Paris Is Burning.
Speaker A: ny Livingston and released in: Speaker A:Drag BALL SCENE Made over seven years, Paris Is Burning offers an intimate portrait of rival fashion houses, from fierce contests for trophies to house mothers offering sustenance in a world rampant with homophobia, transphobia, racism, AIDS and poverty.
Speaker A:Featuring legendary voguers, drag queens and trans women, including Willie Ninja, Pepper LaBeija, Dorian Corey and Venus Extravaganza.
Speaker A:I feel like I have to say it like that because of the film.
Speaker A:Joining us on the podcast tonight is a podcast regular, Coco Ray David.
Speaker A:Welcome back, Coco.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker A:Of course.
Speaker A:And we also have a first timer on the podcast, Camryen Eline Jerrell.
Speaker A:Her pronouns are she, her, we.
Speaker A:She is the former host of Tranos and Lived Experience podcast.
Speaker A:Welcome to the podcast, Cam.
Speaker C:Greetings.
Speaker A:Thank you for being here.
Speaker A:And let's get into the discussion.
Speaker A:Okay, so Paris is Burning.
Speaker A:What were the things that you loved about the film?
Speaker A:Any critiques?
Speaker A:Cam, we'll start with you.
Speaker C:Well, first off, like, Paris is Burning was like an awakening for me.
Speaker C:Like being a kid who grew up in the late 80s, early 90s, like, discovering my queerness and those things.
Speaker C:I was.
Speaker C:I was enamored with the characters.
Speaker C:I was enamored with the representation of it all.
Speaker C:Like there was.
Speaker C:It was taboo.
Speaker C:So Like, I found that movie for the first time, I want to say, in 94, in a porn shop I wasn't supposed to be in.
Speaker C:And it.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker C:The characters jump right out of the screen.
Speaker C:None of that, like, other stuff really, like, spoke to me.
Speaker C:None of the X rated stuff.
Speaker C:I just wanted to know more about who I was.
Speaker C:There was no word for it yet.
Speaker C:So Paris is Burning was an awakening.
Speaker A:And how about you, Coco?
Speaker B:For me, I have always heard about the film, and the film got in my attention around the time.
Speaker B: Black Pride during the early: Speaker B:And that was something I really loved about being around the Gatekeeper as well as Rochester Black Pride.
Speaker B:Rochester Black Pride was my first Pride I ever went to, so I was so happy.
Speaker B:That was my first pride.
Speaker B:It was black.
Speaker B:It was beautiful.
Speaker B:It was just centered around us.
Speaker B:And of course, Rochester Black Bride was started because lack of representation in regular Pride.
Speaker B:So getting a chance to really see it being built and seeing it with Stan was amazing.
Speaker B:So thank you to the Gatekeeper for that one.
Speaker B:But also my friend Taurus.
Speaker B:How many times Taurus is referenced.
Speaker B:Paris is burning.
Speaker B:And then of course, the show pose.
Speaker A:So yeah, yeah, yeah, Paris is Burning.
Speaker A:I think it was something that I had heard a lot about when folks are talking about films that you need to watch classic films.
Speaker A:And I saw it on or like, was going through is like wanting to watch a documentary.
Speaker A:And so I was on HBO and it happened to be there, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I should.
Speaker A:I should watch this.
Speaker A:I've been told to watch this.
Speaker A:So I actually sat down and watched it and was just like, I had no idea of all of this.
Speaker A:This was very new to me.
Speaker A:I'm also, like, remembering, and I can't remember if it was before this or after.
Speaker A:I want to say it was after, but Coco, you had art up at G VA Theater, and it was during Mondays when they.
Speaker A:And I don't know if Jiva still does this, but Mondays at Jiva.
Speaker A:And at the time, the associate artistic director was Rachel De Guzman.
Speaker A:Shout out to Rachel, who had drag performers coming in.
Speaker A:And this was right around the time of the wizard of Oz and their rendition of wizard of Oz.
Speaker A:And they came in and they pulled their own ball.
Speaker A:There was trophies.
Speaker A:You know, folks were like, that was my first Exposure to any of that.
Speaker A:And so watching this film, seeing these people just being.
Speaker A:Despite everything that was happening right around them, they developed this community, this family of people, you know, and they.
Speaker A:They were uplifting themselves, each other.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So it was just very, like, cool to see.
Speaker A:And I, like, I. I don't know, I go back and forth about using cool.
Speaker A:I mean, like, to.
Speaker A:To me, like, they're, they're, they're cool.
Speaker A:Like, I was seeing.
Speaker A:It's cool seeing.
Speaker A:But I'm, like, also, like, thinking a lot about, too, of, like, everything that was happening at the time.
Speaker A:And so I'm like, yeah, like, they're fighting this community, but there's still all of this.
Speaker A:There are all these things that are happening around them that are happening to them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:And I mean, speaking of.
Speaker A:So finding community and what it means to be family, which I found was the biggest takeaway for me from watching this.
Speaker A:Cameron, when we first met, you had started to talk about community and folks throwing this word around and using community.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:It's sort of like this buzzword and folks who say, you know, they're in community or wanting to be in community with people who don't actually know what community is.
Speaker A:So remind me of what it is that community is to you.
Speaker A:Or when you were saying, no, people don't know what actual community is.
Speaker A:What is actual community?
Speaker C:So, yeah, I'll start by saying what community is.
Speaker C:From my perspective, community is a voluntary choosing of compassion and care.
Speaker C:And when we look at Paris is Burning, you can see that that's a community.
Speaker C:Yes, there might be infighting and things happening like that, but at the end of the day, these are family members who are.
Speaker C:Who have chosen to take care of each other, who have chosen to bring each other up, who have chosen to struggle together.
Speaker C:You don't see that in the mainstream nowadays.
Speaker C:Community is a word that is thrown around entirely too much.
Speaker C:Just like the word love, just like the word ally is just tossed out there to, like, embolden some people to continue doing dastardly bullshit, for lack of a better word.
Speaker C:Community is when you watch, when you listen to, like, Pepper Labeija or the other mothers in the movies, they're always like, I take care of my house.
Speaker C:And that being a mother doesn't require you to bore a child, it just requires you to choose to care.
Speaker C:And a lot of the slacktivism that you see nowadays, it's slack as hell out here, and I'm staring at y'.
Speaker C:All.
Speaker C:It's a lot of slacktivism out Here.
Speaker C:Cause you hear that word community.
Speaker C:But what you're really seeing in the community quotes, air quotes, is you're seeing, like, balls to uplift one group of people.
Speaker C:You're seeing people giving, having fundraisers and events where they're just cycling trophies to each other.
Speaker C:And it's not about, like, did we do a drive for food this weekend?
Speaker C:Did we get clothing for people this weekend?
Speaker C:Did we get anyone off the street this weekend?
Speaker C:Did we go out and did we find someone who was really in need?
Speaker C:Did we get someone connected to resources that they would never be able to find on their own?
Speaker C:Did we do those things instead of being on red carpets, taking pictures and shoving the same trophy collectively up each other's asses?
Speaker C:Shout out to y'.
Speaker B:All.
Speaker C:I'm not gonna say y' all name, but y' all know who y' all is.
Speaker C:Y' all trash.
Speaker C:Do better, Coco.
Speaker A:I'll have you answer the same thing.
Speaker A:What does community mean to you?
Speaker B:I really like what Cam said.
Speaker B:I. I feel.
Speaker B:I feel her.
Speaker B:Because community is to uplift and support and to take care of each other and have the willingness to do it.
Speaker B:You know, I always say my tribe, because it takes a tribe to keep things going, you know, and it's very important to have those things.
Speaker B:And I've.
Speaker B:Especially as an artist.
Speaker B:I've been around enough artists who've had family members that just dropped them in a dime of a hat for some things.
Speaker B:And having my first experience, it was in middle school, having a friend I went to school with whose mother overreacted of him finding out.
Speaker A:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker C:I'm a professional wrestler.
Speaker C:We're good.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker A:No, but that's not okay.
Speaker C:Leave that in.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker C:Who?
Speaker A:No, no, I'm not leaving it.
Speaker A:First of all.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:Leave that in.
Speaker A:Damn.
Speaker B:Nobody's gonna break her stride.
Speaker B:I respect.
Speaker A:My God.
Speaker C:Look, I was a professional wrestler for 23 years.
Speaker C:That was like, light work.
Speaker C:I was the NWA world heavyweight champion.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That is so good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:Sorry, guys.
Speaker A:Just the folks who are listening.
Speaker A:One of our lighting equipment just hit Cam on.
Speaker A:On her head.
Speaker A:It was totally going to be like, let's cut that out.
Speaker A:And Cam insisted that we leave that in.
Speaker C:Leave that shit down.
Speaker C:So I get ratings, baby.
Speaker C:And you got to use it as a thumbnail, too.
Speaker C:Like me being crashed.
Speaker A:I'm not doing that.
Speaker C:Paris is burned.
Speaker B:And emphasis, yo.
Speaker C:No, I'm okay, guys.
Speaker A:I swear.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:Telling a story about your friend whose parent overreacted.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I had a friend in middle school who Came out as gay and he was Puerto Rican.
Speaker B:And I remember it broke my heart so bad because we were on the bus together.
Speaker B:We catch the bus together every single day.
Speaker B:We're like right up the street from each other.
Speaker B:And I didn't know what to do because I was 12.
Speaker B:And I was so frustrated that his parent really would kick him out like that.
Speaker B:And it broke my heart.
Speaker B:Cause I was like, just for being yourself.
Speaker B:Yeah, just it's.
Speaker B:And this was the most vulnerable state because of course middle school was right.
Speaker A:Middle school was hell.
Speaker B:It was, you know, and every time I think about that, I. I just remember his expression and his frustration and everything.
Speaker B:And all of it, like, it really broke me, you know, and thinking about being there as a friend, even just to console him through a lot of those things.
Speaker B:And like I said, I have to emphasize I was 12.
Speaker B:I know 12 year olds, there's a lot with 12 year olds, but that was.
Speaker B:That was a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And frustrating to see as a child who grew up in a household where sometimes some parents may not be as accepting, other times it takes some time for parents to accept.
Speaker B:And having, you know, a sibling, that's queer coming out as myself is like, it's a lot.
Speaker B:But how much grace that's needed.
Speaker B:Love, like the emphasis of love, like how we throw the word love so many different times, but not actually showing it right.
Speaker C:You know, choose compassion.
Speaker C:You have to choose compassion and a lot of people just don't.
Speaker C:And what was going on in communities in the 80s was they were banding together.
Speaker C:There were kids at the peers, there were kids at the youth centers.
Speaker C:And we knew back then that a youth center was jail for you.
Speaker C:It was, it was more like, oh, you got sent away to conversion camp.
Speaker C:Pretty much like if you go to foster care, you end up in one of those children's homes.
Speaker C:It's emphasized that there's a religion aspect to it.
Speaker C:There is a severing of community.
Speaker C:Your community members who would protect you from certain things were like, kept away from you.
Speaker C:You had curfews and all those kinds of things.
Speaker C:So like, compassion and choosing to be compassionate in those moments is the benchmark of community for me.
Speaker C:That is just what it has to be.
Speaker C:And going, looking at this film and then looking forward to where we are now, like, can we honestly say that that's the thing that exists specifically in this community here in Rochester?
Speaker C:No, no, it's not what I'm saying.
Speaker C:Like, what they're doing is like, oh, there was a ball last week.
Speaker C:And then Kids went home hungry, they stole things so they could be here, and then they went home hungry.
Speaker C:Or they didn't even go home.
Speaker C:They went to the pier, they went to a shelter, they slept on someone's couch or they went somewhere where they weren't supposed to be.
Speaker C:Highland park used to be a place where children just like went and slept.
Speaker C: That's still happening in: Speaker C:Yeah, we're not choosing community anymore.
Speaker A:And then to me, like that, like the kind of community that we see especially in a movie like Paris is Burning.
Speaker A:And also too like what you're saying, Kim, about what was going on in the 80s and how, and how this community, community really was like looking out for one another, making sure that they were getting fed, they had some roof over their head, they were safe.
Speaker A:Like, it just makes sense to me because if someone comes to me and I've had, as a youth leader, I've had someone come out not only as gay, but also transgender and his, and their, their parents talking about wanting to send them to a conversion camp.
Speaker A:And I said, over my dead body.
Speaker B:I know that's right.
Speaker A:Cause I would have been like, listen, if you need anywhere to crash, I don't have a bed, but I do have a blow up bed, like in my apartment.
Speaker A:I don't have a lot, but it's a roof over your head and it's away from parents who want to send you away.
Speaker A:And it wasn't long after that that it was banned in New York.
Speaker A:Source didn't sort of.
Speaker A:Then it doesn't.
Speaker A:Also doesn't mean that they wouldn't have sent them somewhere else.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And they're, they're doing all right now, but like.
Speaker A:And I just, like, I have, I have a friend who has very conservative parents.
Speaker A:She was like, you know, it's like my, my, my family's threatening or my father's threatening me, all this stuff.
Speaker A:I was like, come over here.
Speaker A:Like, do you need me to come pick you up?
Speaker A:Like, it just makes sense to me if someone, if you're, if you see a friend or someone who is like, who is in need, who doesn't have the, either the means to take care of themselves or need resources or again, like, that was stressed in this film.
Speaker A:You know, so many of those kids, so many folks could not go home.
Speaker A:They could not go to.
Speaker A:They, their parents kicked them out.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:They disowned them.
Speaker A:And so it made sense to be like, okay, I'm an adult who cares about you.
Speaker A:Let me, let me let you under my roof, you know, it just makes sense.
Speaker A:And you're right, Cam.
Speaker A:Like, I don't.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:At least I don't know.
Speaker A:It's not to say that it's not happening, but, I mean, given what I know, I don't see that happening a lot.
Speaker C:You have to have a guide.
Speaker C:You have to have a guide through Gay world is what we called it back then.
Speaker C:And Gay world.
Speaker C:It requires nurturing and the wherewithal to understand.
Speaker C:Like, I've been through this terrible thing, and they don't have to go through it because I Here.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And you have to choose that.
Speaker C:And a lot of people aren't choosing that.
Speaker C:They choose the word mother, they choose the word family.
Speaker C:They choose the word community.
Speaker C:But what it really is is just title.
Speaker C:It's just the title nowadays.
Speaker C:Like, if you look at the movie, Peppa Baja's house is full of youth.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:All over.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:That she took care of Willie Ninja's house was full of youth.
Speaker C:Penderis was all like 15, 16 kids in one house.
Speaker C:Like, and they were taking care of each other.
Speaker C:Because in that tumultuous time, pre Rudy Giuliani shout out to you, scumbag.
Speaker C:Can't wait for you to fall over.
Speaker C:Prehim.
Speaker C:Like, there was just like all the AIDS epidemic and the housing crisis and the war on drugs and the crack epidemic all happening all at once.
Speaker C:And in the middle of it was like this hatred and this.
Speaker C:Like, this.
Speaker C:This broiling hate for, like, the queer community itself being blamed as the progenitors of the AIDS epidemic, being seen as a perverse or predatory.
Speaker C:And the.
Speaker C:You would see the youth on the street, and they would just be a product of it.
Speaker C:They were used or they were harmed or they were hurt.
Speaker C:So they were throwaways.
Speaker C:And so the only ones who were willing to take them in were people who were also shunned, called predatory, were throwaways.
Speaker C:And that's how community was built.
Speaker C:It was by recognizing that there was this common thread with us all and then using that thread to connect us and bind us and protect us from the outside world.
Speaker C:That's not what's happening today.
Speaker A:No, we really.
Speaker A:We really do need to get.
Speaker A:To get back to that.
Speaker A:I remember when you were talking, Kim, I was remembering a.
Speaker A:There's a moment in the film Pepper Labeija is talking about growing up and being someone who loved wearing women's clothing and Pepper's mom finding out about it and burning the clothes.
Speaker A:Like, anytime there would be an opportunity, you know, see Pepper, like, wearing all of these things and Everything and would just burn everything.
Speaker A:And so like for someone to have gone through that and to see youth going through the same thing and then taking over under their ring, of course, like, of, of like it's without question and now it's questioned.
Speaker A:It's like.
Speaker A:Or not even, not even questioned.
Speaker A:It's just not a, it's not a thing.
Speaker A:It's not like where your mind goes and I'm just like what is going on like within our society where that's not even a, it's not even a thought anymore.
Speaker C:40 Years of separation from actual community, being individualized in such a way that they want us disconnected.
Speaker C:So now we don't think in terms of we.
Speaker C:We always think in terms of I, I can't do nothing for them.
Speaker C:What am I supposed to do to help them?
Speaker C:Like it's, it's never a we thing anymore.
Speaker C:Because when you see a youth struggling, it does trigger this, this, this thing in you.
Speaker C:And you can either answer it or not.
Speaker C:And most people aren't answering it.
Speaker C:If I was to see someone who went through the same circumstances as me being pressured to be a boy, going through man lessons, having things destroyed, physical punishments, of course I'm going to choose to become we in that moment.
Speaker C:You are now part of me.
Speaker C:I'm gonna protect you from that.
Speaker C:Because I have to be what I didn't receive right?
Speaker C:So I'm gonna be that for you because I didn't get it.
Speaker C:And I know how hard life is without it.
Speaker C:And a lot of people not, not choosing that.
Speaker C:We're so individualized.
Speaker C:We're so worried about we and getting money and hustle culture and all that other shit and clout chasing that we forgot.
Speaker C:Like we're supposed to be walking children through nature.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:That's what we supposed to be doing.
Speaker C:We supposed to be bringing up the next generation of us.
Speaker C:Because this fight is going to be consistently ongoing until the end of time.
Speaker C:Marking that like what we are fighting for right now, they were fighting for 40 years ago.
Speaker C:They didn't live long enough to see it.
Speaker C:And we probably won't either.
Speaker A:For both of you.
Speaker A:Are there Coco, I can start with you.
Speaker A:Are there any memories and, or feelings, other memories at least?
Speaker A:Because I know we've been talking some about it of course throughout this discussion so far.
Speaker A:But are there any other memories or feelings that spring up for you?
Speaker A:Like especially having like watched this film?
Speaker B:For me, I really enjoyed the film, I really enjoyed the storytelling and like I said, I like non linear ways of telling stories.
Speaker B:But I Also, like the historical aspect of just keeping history and constantly talking about it does make me sad that most of the cast is gone, of course, because of the times and everything.
Speaker B:It really made me think about a lot of the places and spaces I was able to go to.
Speaker B:Of course, growing up in a Christian home, you know, you.
Speaker B:They tell you about community and going to church and doing all those things, but when I got older and actually being able to, like, kind of find myself a little more, I was able to find my own community.
Speaker B:And I was so happy that, you know, there were amazing individuals who were trying to create community for those who needed it, even if it wasn't the perfect one.
Speaker B:I've learned why it's important to keep building community and also helping and just thinking about the different places we have here.
Speaker B:Like, I always talk about this place.
Speaker B:I'm so sad it's gone.
Speaker B:Tilt.
Speaker B:Tilt was one of the very few queer spaces we had.
Speaker B:And at the age of 18, that was only the place that would accept 18 year olds to go into clubs.
Speaker B:And just being able to see drag queens, which was amazing.
Speaker B:Like, drag queens are just.
Speaker B:Just being able to see that, like, by seeing like, Ms.
Speaker B:Delicious back then was amazing because of course, she was my first black drag queen.
Speaker B:And seeing her and then seeing just the way things were there, like, who cares about bathrooms?
Speaker B:Everybody's using the bathroom.
Speaker B:That was something I always say.
Speaker B:And even today I'm like, why can't y' all just have regular, like, bathrooms?
Speaker B:Just no genders, like, just have a bathroom.
Speaker B:People just need to use the bathroom, you know?
Speaker B:And then of course, growing to see how much there's so much more than just what we were always told and what we've learned and how much it affirmed me, you know, being seen as me.
Speaker B:I've had people for years call me weird.
Speaker B:And I used to hate that where I was like, why?
Speaker B:Why do you use that word weird?
Speaker B:What's wrong with being weird?
Speaker B:Like, what's up?
Speaker B:And then, of course, thinking about the word queer.
Speaker B:Like, weird and queer are very synonymous, but queer always has, like, negative connotations next to it.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker B:I love.
Speaker B:Like, to be honest, I think that's what I loved about, you know, I don't like being othered, but thinking about how people use that word, I'm like, you know what?
Speaker B:I'm okay with that.
Speaker B:I would rather be that than normal to not gonna hold you.
Speaker B:I really appreciate that.
Speaker B:And I'm 33 years old.
Speaker B:I'm able to make my own decisions and see Myself, for the first time ever, I could say I feel like myself.
Speaker B:Like, I know that's so hard because so many of us are trying to just navigate in this world, finding ourselves and how do we fit in society.
Speaker B:And I think that's what I loved about the movie is who cares?
Speaker B:Forget society, let's make our own world.
Speaker B:That's what I loved about world building.
Speaker B:And even how they were able to.
Speaker B:Like that was one of the reasons I even loved learning about Ballroom.
Speaker B:I was like all the different categories, but those categories had reason.
Speaker B:Like, you know, and there was a, there was things behind that and of course showcasing who, you know, who was, who's who.
Speaker B:And I loved it.
Speaker B:And I was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker B:And I also thought it was in the, in a sense an interesting way of kind of talking, like talking back to society about this is what you guys want.
Speaker B:Like, this is how you want people to just put people in boxes instead of just letting people just come and express themselves.
Speaker B:I just feel like people don't like.
Speaker B:I feel like society doesn't like people expressing themselves.
Speaker B:That's the point, you know, and I really, you know, and that's when I.
Speaker B:This is one reason why I love being an artist.
Speaker B:Because in art spaces.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's not a Quite.
Speaker A:Of course.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, you have your own way of.
Speaker B:You have, you do.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:And what's.
Speaker B:Is also one of the reasons why art gets attacked the most.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Because you don't have.
Speaker B:It's the freedom of expression, the freedom of being able to expound surface level shit.
Speaker B:You know, being able to be who you are.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Without question, without critic, nothing.
Speaker B:And even if they do give you.
Speaker B:I must fuck the critiques.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:Seriously.
Speaker B:You know, so I feel like being able to see this film and being around the people who have created spaces for me to just exist and find myself and come home to myself.
Speaker B:Like that's the thing, coming home to yourself.
Speaker B:And seeing how much a lot of these, like even youth trying to find themselves and what happens when parents fail them, but what happens when community uplifts them and creates spaces for them.
Speaker B:And a lot of times this person I am today.
Speaker B:Sorry, I'm a little emotional.
Speaker B:It's because I want to be the person I wish my 12 year old self was supposed to be.
Speaker B:To help my friend.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Because that broke me.
Speaker B:And even to be so scared to even ask my mom like, hey, can you stay with us?
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:And even didn't know what she was going to say back then, but now Knowing my mom, the grace would have been extended.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, so a lot of times it's speaking up or just being there for people, you know, and hearing you talk about how everyone's isolated, individualized, because I feel like that's how we feel in the black community.
Speaker B:How many times we've been isolated and individualized because we see how powerful community is when we come together and help each other out in need.
Speaker B:And, Jackie, you're.
Speaker B:How many times you.
Speaker B:We just had.
Speaker B:Look what we did for our friend, you know, with Erica.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Trying to find ways to make sure that everybody in our community is good, even if it's making a post, even if it's checking in, even if it's making meals.
Speaker B:I. I remember there was a group that used to make meals over the summertime and just give them away.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:You know, I don't know.
Speaker B:I don't think I saw anybody doing that this year, but I was like, dang, we really need to bring stuff like that back because there are people and children that are hungry.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And we don't know that because people are too afraid to say anything.
Speaker B:Are too ashamed to say anything.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, I can think of.
Speaker A:So I think there's food, not bombs and Eastside potluck society who are just making food and distributing it.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But yeah, I mean, for you and people like you, people who.
Speaker A:Who see a need, who are seeing and are.
Speaker A:Aren't just going to wait around.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:For other people to take care of it, it's like, no, I see this.
Speaker A:I'm the one who sees this.
Speaker A:Like, I'm the one who needs to take care of.
Speaker A:Like, I'm the one who needs to do something because I'm the one seeing it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Cam, how about you?
Speaker A:About, you know, any other, like, memories or feelings?
Speaker A:You know, there's a.
Speaker C:There's a deep reverence.
Speaker C:When I watched the film, it reminds me of what was a simpler time, but it was also a little painful because I was so heavily in the closet.
Speaker C:So in the midst of boy training, I was being trained to be a boy.
Speaker C:I was being trained to be a leader and a father of a house and make babies and be masculine, and I just wanted to be me.
Speaker C:And so when I wash, when I watch Paris is Burning, it gives me this feeling of, like, look at, like, these people against all odds, being themselves.
Speaker C:It also gives me.
Speaker C:When I step back and I look at it.
Speaker C:These were lessons from them on manifestation.
Speaker C:Like, when you watch someone walk into a ballroom, they are manifesting who they want to be.
Speaker C:They are becoming this thing that starts in their mind first and then comes off of their lips and then burst into, like, big being, period.
Speaker C:That's what it is.
Speaker C:And from Paris Is Burning, I took that piece and I became myself, fully Cameron, fully myself in public, fully.
Speaker C:Not afraid to be undiagnosed, a witch, a black.
Speaker C:I'm not afraid to be any of those things in public spaces now.
Speaker C:And I take that from the great feeling of that from Paris Is Burning, but also, like, there's just like a little bit of pain in it because I realized that those people are no longer here and that the lessons that we got from them, yes, it was fulfilling for us, but we left them in the cold.
Speaker C:A lot of the stuff that was going on while this movie was being filmed was a bit exploitative.
Speaker C:And as much as it gives us representation, there was still like, the unseen hand making money while everyone else was still sort of struggling.
Speaker C:Me being one of the older ones here at the table, I still remember of that.
Speaker C:And as much as I like I watch Paris Is Burning once a week, I'm always struggling.
Speaker C:Like, is this bitch get money from this?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:Yeah, because I would like that money to go to, like, the people that were featured.
Speaker C:She followed them around for seven years, and then when that seven years was done, she wiped her hands of them and kept getting money off of it.
Speaker C:So there's feelings of reverence, but there's a little bit of anger too.
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:We will get into.
Speaker A:Into that a little bit later in the episode, but I'm wanting to dive deeper into the film and some of the themes, some of the things that I, at least in my watching again, because, I mean, I. I might not be watching it like once a week, but I do watch it pretty often.
Speaker A:And so we're in this, you know, we're in this series and we're talking about black resistance.
Speaker A:And so many of the themes of resistance, at least I was seeing, and I would love for either of you, you know, both of you to.
Speaker A:To expand upon this, you know, but much of what we've talked about before has been about, like, creating, you know, their own worlds, you know, where they are the stars, they are the main characters.
Speaker A:They're doing whatever is necessary to make sure that they're dress to impress, to win as so much as far as.
Speaker A:Well, one of the.
Speaker A:One of the people featured in the film calls it mopping or essentially stealing.
Speaker A:So, like taking, you know, taking.
Speaker A:Taking whatever they can, right, to, you know, win these awards.
Speaker A:To be seen, right?
Speaker A:To be recognized.
Speaker A:There were all these different houses, right?
Speaker A:And so, of course, a way to get into one of those houses, right, was to.
Speaker A:Was to win.
Speaker A:And so, like I said, they're doing whatever they can, you know, in order to win.
Speaker A:Because this is a place, this is a community of people, right, that they feel safe, that they feel like they can be 100% themselves.
Speaker A:I believe there's a.
Speaker A:There's a man in the beginning of the film who says, when I'm here, I. I feel 100%, right?
Speaker A:And like you had mentioned before, Cam, like, there are house mothers looking out for their kids, right?
Speaker A:Both inside and outside of ball, you know, there is inclusivity within balls.
Speaker A:They're explaining when ball.
Speaker A:When ballroom started, a lot of them were emulating Vegas showgirls.
Speaker A:And, you know, as it goes on, not everyone can put on feathers and do all of that and everything.
Speaker A:So what they did was they created categories so that everyone could participate.
Speaker A:And so seeing, even in.
Speaker A:Even in a marginalized community, there's also intersectionality, right, that's happening.
Speaker A:There's that inclusivity within.
Speaker A:Within that which I thought was beautiful, I also saw.
Speaker A:So again, and these all are.
Speaker A:Again, these are all the things of themes of resistance that I had seen, but also with ball being.
Speaker A:Ballroom being like the arbiter of cool.
Speaker A:Because now, right, we have things.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:I mean, it's.
Speaker A:A lot of this language has been, unfortunately, as we've seen with a lot of things, especially when it's coming from black folks, you know, a lot of this kind of like, culture.
Speaker A:Culture stuff where a lot of these terms have been.
Speaker A:The terms I'm about to say have been reduced to, like, Internet slang.
Speaker A:So things like throwing shade, you know, voguing.
Speaker A:There is also, too.
Speaker A:There's reading people, you know, these are forms of.
Speaker A:Evoking is a form of dance.
Speaker A:You know, that is their alternative ways.
Speaker A:Like they said, like fighting.
Speaker A:Yeah, of fighting.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, the film they talk about each house, right?
Speaker A:These are.
Speaker A:These are your.
Speaker A:Your.
Speaker A:Your gangs or rivals, but instead of fighting, you're dancing, Right?
Speaker A:But, yeah, so, like, a lot of these terms, you know, we we hear today, but it originated, right, with all these kids, like, growing up, you know, in.
Speaker A:In the 80s as a part of ballroom.
Speaker A:Are there any other themes that I might have missed?
Speaker A:Or did you want to.
Speaker A:Or.
Speaker A:Cam, I'll start with you.
Speaker A:Did you want to expand on any of that?
Speaker C:Yeah, to expand on that.
Speaker C:Like, ballroom culture, at that period of time, they move to make these different categories.
Speaker C:For themselves.
Speaker C:Because, like you said, like, before, it was the feather boas and the Las Vegas showgirl thing, but that thing was created by white trans people, by white drag queens.
Speaker C:And it was created specifically to be economically exclusive.
Speaker C:So this movement was making sure that, like, you can.
Speaker C:You can show up here and if you mop some shit, we not gonna say nothing about it.
Speaker C:Like, we don't care for the.
Speaker C:For the night.
Speaker C:The illusion is yours.
Speaker C:You go out there and mop.
Speaker C:Cause mopping begat boosting, and boosting begat, scamming, and scamming begat stunting.
Speaker C:And stunting is a habit and all that shit.
Speaker C:But, like, just the ingenuity of us has always been borrowed by other cultures.
Speaker C:So when you hear the words voguing and reading, you see people being like, clock it.
Speaker C:Like, yeah, like, I mean, do you really know where that came from?
Speaker C:Are you gonna pay any reference to her?
Speaker C:Are you just here to fucking steal again?
Speaker C:Like, we have always been the arbiters of cool.
Speaker C:We have always been the arbiters of culture.
Speaker C:I'm gonna look that in the camera when I say, shit.
Speaker C:American culture is black queer culture.
Speaker C:And if you don't like that, I mean, you can eat a bag of several inappropriate things.
Speaker C:But, like, we've always.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:We've always.
Speaker C:We've always been at the forefront because our survival looks cool.
Speaker C:We make survival look cool.
Speaker C:We take parts of animals that you wouldn't eat, and we make it taste great.
Speaker C:We take movements and feelings and we turn them into art and dance.
Speaker C:We do all of those things.
Speaker C:And then you borrow it from us and you bastardize it, and then it goes away.
Speaker C:But, like, we.
Speaker C:We've been doing it the whole time.
Speaker C:We've been doing it for almost 500 years now.
Speaker C: r culture now has shaped what: Speaker C:All that stuff we were at the front of and this movie, like, really, like, puts that point out there.
Speaker C:Like, yeah, like, we created a world, the one you're fucking standing in.
Speaker C:Like, yeah, you don't want us to be a part of it, but you eat our food, you use our language, you do our dances, you steal our terms.
Speaker C:Welcome to my fucking world.
Speaker C:You know what I mean?
Speaker C:Like, we in this house, we're like.
Speaker C:We're competing for a chance to be stars amongst ourselves, but we're already stars to you.
Speaker C:You won't forget us because you know what?
Speaker C:We are more than we do.
Speaker C:That's why you don't want us to have Food.
Speaker C:That's why you don't want us to have education.
Speaker C:That's why you don't want us out in public.
Speaker C:That's why you don't want us in bathrooms, because you can't compete with how fucking cool we are 100% of the time.
Speaker C:Even in the midst of struggle, even in the midst of chaos, even under the thumb of oppression, I'm still fucking cooler than you.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Sorry about it, Gary.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:Did you have anything to add to that, Coco?
Speaker B:I. I really like.
Speaker B:I really like sitting next to him is.
Speaker B:Is history in the history live, like,.
Speaker A:Living legend, literally, like, right here.
Speaker B:So I feel like I'm learning so much.
Speaker B:I'm just like, I can listen to you talk all day.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker A:Of course.
Speaker A:Why Kam needs that podcast.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:I'm trying.
Speaker C:We go.
Speaker C:We go.
Speaker C:We gonna talk about it.
Speaker C:I'm trying really hard, but, like, no, no, no.
Speaker C:I really appreciate that because it took me a long time to, like, that's another lesson.
Speaker C:That's another thing that I took from this is it took me a long time to realize that, like, oh, my voice is super powerful, and the things that I have to say are relevant.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I might sound like a crazy person most of the time, but, like, Merlin was crazy, Martin Luther King was crazy.
Speaker C:Malcolm X was crazy.
Speaker C:Like, a lot of people were considered crazy, but they were revolutionaries.
Speaker C:And what I learned is that a ballroom is a room full of revolutionary.
Speaker B:Say that again.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Ballroom is revolutionary.
Speaker C:Like, queer culture, Black queer culture has always been revolutionary.
Speaker A:All right, we will get back into the conversation after a few moments.
Speaker A:We'll take a quick break.
Speaker A:As a documentary filmmaker, we always talk, especially within the filmmaking community, like, always talking about integrity and always talking about the taking care of the people in front of the camera and being careful not to be exploitive and everything like that.
Speaker A:We need to talk about Jenny Livingston, the director behind Paris is Burning.
Speaker A:And so, Cam, you had brought this to my attention because I had.
Speaker A:I had no idea of the history and.
Speaker A:And the people in the film as well as within that community talking about Jenny.
Speaker A:I pulled.
Speaker A:So I pulled.
Speaker A:I was going to read a few excerpts just from the article in the New York Times called Paris has Burned by Jesse Green.
Speaker A: This was back in: Speaker A:So there.
Speaker A:I'm just reading a clip now.
Speaker A:There is a lot of anger in the ball world about Paris's burning.
Speaker A:Some of it concerns what a few critics have called exploitation, making the lives of poor black and Latino people into a commodity for white consumption.
Speaker A:The complaint is someone unfounded, Ms. Livingston said, as it was largely a gay audience, which included blacks, huh?
Speaker A:And Latin right and Latinos that made the movie successful anyway, Ms. Livingston continued, I don't believe you have to be one thing to make a film about it.
Speaker A:I'm white, yes, but I'm an openly queer female director and I can't think of anything more out of the mainstream.
Speaker A:I'm sorry, but I do not think I have the same relationship to the ruling class as a straight man.
Speaker A:But most of the anger centers on money.
Speaker A:I love the movie, I watch it more than often but and I don't agree that it exploits us, said Pepper Labeija, 44, whose braggadocio and fierce but Faye style made him a standout in Paris Is Burning.
Speaker A:But I feel betrayed.
Speaker A:When Jenny first came, we were at a ball in our fantasy and she threw papers at us.
Speaker A:We didn't read them because we wanted the attention.
Speaker A:We loved being filmed.
Speaker A:Later when she did the interviews she gave us a couple hundred dollars, but she told us that when the film came out we would be all right, there would be more coming.
Speaker A:And that made me think I would have enough money for a car and a nice apartment and for my kids education because a number of years ago to please my mother I took a little break from being a 24 hour drag queen and so I have a daughter, 15 and a son ready for college.
Speaker A:But when the film came out, nothing.
Speaker A:They all got rich and we got nothing.
Speaker A:Miramax, which released the film, said that Paris is Burning grossed slightly more than 4 million at theaters in the United States.
Speaker A:This is not much compared to a Hollywood hit, but it is exceptional for for a documentary that cost only $500,000, including 175,000 for music clearances to make.
Speaker A:Ms. Livingston would not say how much money she made from the movie.
Speaker A:There was a rumor in the ball world, and this delights me, that I now have a house on Long island next to Calvin and Kelly Klein.
Speaker A:But the truth is I live about the same as I did, except that I used to be chronically about three months late in paying the rent and now I'm more or less on time.
Speaker A:Still, all but two of the movie's surviving principals, Willie Ninja and Duran Corey, hired lawyers to try to cash in on the film's success.
Speaker A:The largest claim came from Paris Dupree, who sought $40 million for unauthorized and fraudulent use of her services, though she is never named on camera and appears for less than three of the movie's 76 minutes.
Speaker A: Her: Speaker A:But like all the others, she had signed a release and her lawyer dropped the matter.
Speaker A:And then it goes on to say Pepper Labeija was not appeased.
Speaker A:The $5,000 I got was hush money.
Speaker A:We didn't have no choice but to take it.
Speaker A:And $1,500 went to my lawyer for doing nothing.
Speaker A:He paused and then the musical swaggering tone familiar from the film returned to his voice.
Speaker A:But at least it brought me international fame.
Speaker A:I do love that walking down the street.
Speaker A:People stop me all the time, which was one of my dreams doing the drags in the first place.
Speaker A:It goes on to talk more about.
Speaker A:Talk about Jenny Livingston.
Speaker A:And then I think there's also to a quote for from Dorian Corey saying, oh, yes, to this day, a lot of the girls hate Miss Jenny, but that's just greed.
Speaker A:Then she goes on to say, junior, uh huh.
Speaker A:Junior labeija pitched a bitch in the Amsterdam News saying he wanted $50,000 because he was the star of the movie.
Speaker A:But the Bette Davis mummy just wasn't there.
Speaker A:I'll tell you who is making out is those clever Miramaxes.
Speaker A:But I didn't do it for money anyway.
Speaker A:I did it for the film.
Speaker A:Always have.
Speaker A:All right, so.
Speaker C:Dorian, you.
Speaker C:You was trying to get low cause you murder somebody.
Speaker A:Now I'll go more into detail about that because you mentioned that before we started recording.
Speaker C:So it's on.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's a.
Speaker C:It's a lore, but like it's a fact.
Speaker C:We don't know why it happened, but at some point Dorian Corey passed away and there was her.
Speaker C:Her children came to her home.
Speaker C:She had said that they can take certain things.
Speaker C:And while they were looking through her things, they found a chest with a mummified body in it.
Speaker C:That mummified body is featured in this goddamn movie in a box with a.
Speaker C:A shawl over it, a red and black calico shawl and a cat sitting on top of it.
Speaker C:There is a scene where Dorian Corey is putting on makeup, right?
Speaker C:And his body is in the frame.
Speaker C:So Dorian was trying to get low.
Speaker C:She didn't want Miramax doing no more poking at her house.
Speaker A:Oh my.
Speaker C:Because they was in that room for hours videotaping her and nobody noticed.
Speaker C:And there was a dead nigga in a box.
Speaker C:I'm gonna use that word very Strongly dead nigga in a box.
Speaker C:So Dorian was trying to get.
Speaker C:Not to mention the fact, like, how grandiose are you?
Speaker C:Like, oh, I wasn't worried about money.
Speaker C:You weren't.
Speaker C:You struck.
Speaker C: It was: Speaker C:We was all struggling for money.
Speaker C:And for these people to be asking for compensation for the representation they provided is more than.
Speaker C:It's more than understandable from where I sit.
Speaker C:Like it.
Speaker C:What's the difference between what.
Speaker C:What's her name?
Speaker C:I can't remember her name because I'm old.
Speaker C:Remind me what the latest name is.
Speaker A:Jenny Livingston.
Speaker C:Jenny Livingston.
Speaker C:What's the difference between what Jenny Livingston did and photographers and videographers in the 60s going to like other countries and filming naked people, also posting it in National Geographic.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Giving them notices on what to sign in languages that they can't read.
Speaker C:What's the difference?
Speaker C:Like, she exploited those people.
Speaker C:And yes, it was because she wanted to give a glimpse for the sake of art.
Speaker C:But the sake of art, through some people's lenses, has always been for money.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:It's always been, I love my art because it makes me money.
Speaker C:She made money off of that deal.
Speaker C:She doesn't want to disclose it because it was way more than what she offered those other people.
Speaker C:So I'm going to follow you around for seven years, and I'm going to put your life on Front street, which might put you in danger, which might make you a target, because Ruby Giuliani, waiting on the corner, his turn to fuck with you.
Speaker C:And that's a whole nother conversation.
Speaker C:I'm gonna.
Speaker C:I'm gonna throw you a couple hundred dollars.
Speaker C:Good luck.
Speaker C:You accommodated me.
Speaker C:You.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker C:You trusted me.
Speaker C:You opened yourself up to me.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:Here's $50.
Speaker C:And then when the movie drops and you make 4 million, where's the rest of that money?
Speaker C:Like, I mean, like we talked about, like.
Speaker C:And then you show back up to do, like, follow ups.
Speaker C:We know that you showed up to do follow ups.
Speaker C:So after the movie was done, you did several follow ups.
Speaker C:We know that, because Venus passed away.
Speaker C:Venus passed away, like, weeks after the movie was.
Speaker C:And you showed up.
Speaker C:Yeah, you showed up to make sure that we knew about the gruesomeness of her death.
Speaker C:You showed up to know that, make sure that it was documented, but you didn't stay long enough to console or comfort anyone.
Speaker C:Like, as I'm not.
Speaker C:I'm not a documentarian, but I imagine if I was, I would be a lot more caring.
Speaker C:Like, you've invited me into your life.
Speaker C:Yes, and if this does any numbers, we are partners in this.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:I am merely the scribe.
Speaker C:You are telling the story.
Speaker C:Why would I make more money than you?
Speaker C:Or at least, like, why wouldn't I be willing to give you money for what you have provided me as a storyteller?
Speaker C:Like, and what she did, she did not.
Speaker C:She did not nurture the community in that way.
Speaker C:It was a lot of fast talking and a lot of like, oh, sign this.
Speaker C:I'm going to follow you around, I'm going to make you world renowned, but you still gonna be in the fucking slums when I leave.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:She gets to go to war dinners and she gets to have the conversations about, like, other people's lived experiences that she was there to witness.
Speaker C:And then we got Dorian Corey.
Speaker C:I mean, I love you to death, or you did that.
Speaker A:But do we also have to say alleged, but for that?
Speaker A:By the way, she.
Speaker C:She.
Speaker C:She killed somebody.
Speaker C:It's a fact.
Speaker C:Like, she was charged with it after she died.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker C:Like, there was charges.
Speaker C:Like, they found a body and her thing in a note.
Speaker C:My God, I was just looking that up for posterity.
Speaker C:So, yes, that is.
Speaker A:It is, Doc.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker C:It's documented.
Speaker C:So if you gonna sue me, sue me for what, baby?
Speaker C:Sue me for what?
Speaker A:Listen, we're talking to somebody who's won many a lawsuit.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:And if you want to fight about it, I'm down for that too.
Speaker C:Shout out to the light that tried.
Speaker B:To chop it after on you.
Speaker C:We on your ass when this is over with.
Speaker C:But, yeah, like, just the fact that this thing happened.
Speaker C:Yeah, but like, Dorian was trying to.
Speaker C:What?
Speaker C:I feel.
Speaker C:I'm gonna say, I feel that Dorian was trying to take the high road in a situation that did not require it.
Speaker C:It was a pick me moment.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Oh, they was all being greedy.
Speaker C:Greedy about somebody following you around for seven years and making millions of dollars off of your lived experience.
Speaker C:It's not greedy to be like, hey, what happened to us?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:Why aren't you taking care of us?
Speaker C:We're still staying at the ymch.
Speaker C:We're still huddled in one person's apartment.
Speaker C:We're still struggling at night to find ways to make work.
Speaker C:We're still struggling to keep our businesses open.
Speaker C:They won't even allow us to have them at some instances.
Speaker C:You made business and commerce off of us.
Speaker C:Why wouldn't we ask you for money?
Speaker C:It's not greedy.
Speaker C:And as for Peppa Labeijous, stanking booty ass.
Speaker C:Allegedly.
Speaker C:Allegedly.
Speaker C:But some of the things that she did in this movie Was pretty transphobic.
Speaker A:Explain.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And there's a.
Speaker C:There was one point.
Speaker A:Wait, is this when Pepper is talking about, I. I could never.
Speaker A:I could never be a woman?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Even though, admittedly, she tried, right?
Speaker C:She tried.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And her parents somehow coerced her out of it.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:But because she was coerced out of it, she wasn't able to do it.
Speaker C:Now, it's not a move for anyone.
Speaker C:She made several comments during that commentary.
Speaker C:And it's like, you.
Speaker C:You were in the movie, but you shouldn't be proud of every moment you were in that movie.
Speaker C:And I do pay reverence to you and I respect you, but I would have called you out for that shit on the carpet.
Speaker C:I was only 10 when it happened, so you was lucky.
Speaker C:She said something to the effect of, people think they'll transition into a woman is going to give you an easier life.
Speaker C:No, the.
Speaker C:They don't.
Speaker B:No, they don't.
Speaker C:No, they don't.
Speaker C:Nobody thinks that way.
Speaker A:They want to be themselves.
Speaker C:She also boiled down transitioning to vaginas.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Really weird.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, by 80s 90s standards, she probably thought she was being profound, but in hindsight, fucking weird.
Speaker C:Ms. Lavasia.
Speaker C:And for a person who has experienced the hatred and the coercion, I was pretty pissed about that.
Speaker C:But I also still feel she needed to be compensated for her part.
Speaker C:And what she did.
Speaker C:She was still taking care of a family of kids.
Speaker C:She was still trying to make a way in the world for.
Speaker C:For queer people.
Speaker C:She was still upholding people.
Speaker C:Even though she might have been problematic in some of the things she said, she should have been compensated for what she did.
Speaker C:And they gave her a little $5,000 and pushed her to the side.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:There were so many, like, great moments and great people that we met Willie Ninja.
Speaker C:She came back long enough to find out that he passed away.
Speaker C:She came back long enough to find out that, like, Octavia St. Laurent got big without her.
Speaker C:Actually, Octavia St. Laurent was already in the mix.
Speaker C:Well, we want to remind everybody, Octavia St. Laurent was at modeling competitions and doing those things and being followed by cameras.
Speaker C:She wasn't brought there by the cameras.
Speaker C:Octavia Saint Laurent.
Speaker C:And she made comments about, like, hey, we weren't properly compensated.
Speaker C:We weren't told exactly what was in the know about what was going on.
Speaker C:And it's.
Speaker C:It's atypical of the art that was going on back then.
Speaker C:A lot of people wanted to be Andy Warhol, but a lot of them were just like plantation hands with cameras.
Speaker C:Overseers.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And fuck you, Ms. Livingston.
Speaker C:Is she alive?
Speaker A:As far as I know.
Speaker A:I mean, she did an inter.
Speaker A:I'm assuming.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A: lwaukee Film Festival back in: Speaker C:Yeah, well, hurry up and leave.
Speaker B:Damn.
Speaker A:But yes.
Speaker A:Well, because she.
Speaker A:In an interview that she did with Milwaukee Film Festival, she states that she is a conduit between viewers and a community that wasn't in film.
Speaker A:And the film preserves her wisdom, resilience, and beauty of a culture at a particular time.
Speaker A:And while I agree with that, I don't know if she.
Speaker A:I don't think she's necessarily somebody who respects that, because someone who.
Speaker A:I think, to me, especially when now we're in a time where, like, folks are wanting to do their due diligence as documentary filmmakers.
Speaker A:I think there's a.
Speaker A:There's a film that's called Subjects or Subject.
Speaker A:I may be getting that wrong.
Speaker A:I'll have to look it up.
Speaker A:I'll put it in the show notes for anyone who's interested, of course.
Speaker A:But there was a film that came out, I want to say, like, a few years ago, and it was a.
Speaker A:It was specifically about, you know, using the term subjects and what is owed to the people that are in front of the camera.
Speaker A:And to me, I'm like, you know, I want everyone.
Speaker A:I want everyone to be uplifted.
Speaker A:If I'm working with people and people are giving their time and lived experiences, some of which could be traumatic, them reliving a trauma as.
Speaker A:Or they're going through trauma at the time that we're filming.
Speaker A:Like, if I'm earning millions of dollars.
Speaker A:I mean, if anyone wants to pay us millions of dollars for being black in America, please feel free.
Speaker B:Yes, please.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:My cash app is.
Speaker A:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker A:Cash app is Jackie McGrath.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:So, you know, but then at the same time, also, I'd be like, okay, you know, let me.
Speaker A:Let me pay some bills.
Speaker A:But I also want.
Speaker A:I also want everyone who stepped in front of my camera, everyone who was behind the camera, shout out to Coco, my fellow camera operator, like, I want everybody to eat.
Speaker A:Like, I want everyone to be able to.
Speaker A:Whatever it is that they need in their life to be able to do that.
Speaker A:And I think, you know, there was.
Speaker A:Because Ms. Livingston, like, makes a comment about, you know, we're.
Speaker A:We're.
Speaker A:She was told.
Speaker A:And this.
Speaker A:This may have been true at the time.
Speaker A:And I think for.
Speaker A:I think for a lot of directors, it's still true where there is no obligation to pay the people that are in front of the Camera.
Speaker A:But I'm like.
Speaker A:But I'm centering people who are going through it, have been through it, are about to go through.
Speaker A:Like, if you're coming to me.
Speaker A:I've interviewed people who.
Speaker A:I've interviewed a mother who.
Speaker A:And this was for somebody else.
Speaker A:So I was at work for hire, but I've interviewed a mom who was talking about losing her son to gun violence.
Speaker A:That's trauma.
Speaker A:I've interviewed elders who were talking about being stopped by the police after.
Speaker A:After going to a march.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:They're talking about traumatic experiences.
Speaker A:The very least that I can do is make sure that if I'm being paid, that you're also being paid.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:Because that's your lived experience.
Speaker A:That's your.
Speaker A:You're sitting down and you're taking the time out of your day, right.
Speaker A: s that were happening back in: Speaker A:So there are all of these institutions, there's all these companies, right.
Speaker A:They're saying, you know, recognizing the uprisings that are happening with Black Lives Matter and wanting to give back to the very communities, you know, that a lot of them were exploiting.
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker A:And so there was a lot of asking black artists, black creatives, black thought leaders, their opinions.
Speaker A:They're talking about their lived experiences.
Speaker A:And still, like, some of the institutions would pay, but some of them were merely just, we, okay, we need a black face.
Speaker A:We need black bodies to, like, talk without even putting into consideration, wait, like, what is the situation that this person is going through?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We're in the streets.
Speaker A:There's Covid is happening.
Speaker A:A lot of us.
Speaker A:I forget who said it.
Speaker A:I think it was Taurus who was like, we're just $500 away from being on the street.
Speaker B:Yeah, all of us.
Speaker A:So, yeah, so it's like, okay, cool.
Speaker A:You want me to talk to you about my lived experience?
Speaker A:Where's the compensation?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And it's just a perpetuation of what she was doing.
Speaker C:Ms. Livingston was like, one of the.
Speaker C:The biggest to do it.
Speaker C:Like, it was like, oh, so, like, I'm not gonna.
Speaker C:I want your expertise, but I'm not gonna pay you for it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I want you to tell this story, and I'm gonna frame it in such a way that your story gets out there, but I'm not going to pay you for it.
Speaker C:I'm doing you a service.
Speaker C:She says that she was a conduit, but why didn't you conduct some motherfucking cream bitch?
Speaker A:Hello.
Speaker C:Cash rules everything around me.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:We in the middle of New York.
Speaker C:We in Harlem.
Speaker C:And you wasted seven years of my life.
Speaker C:I'm not gonna get paid for it.
Speaker C:That's crazy work.
Speaker C:That's crazy talk.
Speaker C:And for some reason, when it's black bodies, black and brown bodies involved, We've been doing it for four.
Speaker C:We're going to go back 40 years now.
Speaker C:This has been happening for 40 years.
Speaker C:Think about from that period in time with Paris is Burning to now, how many times the Latino and black community has been interviewed with no conversation being put in magazines because, like, oh, we gave you.
Speaker C:We.
Speaker C:We gave you exposure.
Speaker C:Exposure.
Speaker C:We get paid in exposure, right?
Speaker C:We don't get paid for our expertise.
Speaker C:We don't get paid for our storytelling.
Speaker C:We don't get paid for the trauma.
Speaker C:We don't even get comforted for the trauma.
Speaker C:We don't get anything.
Speaker A:That Part two, I've had people interviewing people, and they are.
Speaker A:Are.
Speaker A:Are crying and they're.
Speaker A:They're emotional, and then they.
Speaker A:They're the ones who start saying, I'm sorry.
Speaker A:And I'm like, sorry for what?
Speaker A:Why are you apologizing for being a human being, Right?
Speaker A:You're going through.
Speaker A:I like to stop things and, like, quickly make sure that they're okay if they want to continue.
Speaker A:If not, that's totally fine.
Speaker A:Like, if you want something taken out or anything, I'm like, how can I be in service to you?
Speaker A:Because, yes, I'm grateful for you to come in front of the camera and tell me about your experience, but, like, how are you doing?
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:Like, I want to know, okay, where are you at?
Speaker A:You know, and I've.
Speaker A:And I've seen.
Speaker A:I've seen other.
Speaker A:Seen other filmmakers do that, and I'm glad that, you know, more people are doing that, but, like, for it to not be a regular practice for you to just treat human beings, and it's.
Speaker C:Specifically not a regular practice for brown.
Speaker C:Brown people.
Speaker C:Like, the urge I had to fight when Coco started crying, I was like, I know.
Speaker A:I was, like, looking for.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:I was like.
Speaker C:I wanted to be like, oh, my God, are you all right?
Speaker C:Like, I wanted to stop everything.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah, I was looking for tissues.
Speaker C:Yeah, me too.
Speaker A:I was like, I need.
Speaker B:I'm staring at tissues over here, you know?
Speaker A:I know, girl, you could have walked up.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know.
Speaker A:Please, please feel free.
Speaker C:Like, this is my first time being in such a professional setting.
Speaker C:So I was like, I don't know if I'm supposed to, like, hug you right now because I want to.
Speaker C:Like, I just wanted to be like.
Speaker A:We were filming being black in America, and we're like.
Speaker A:So folks are talking at a table, and it's me and Coco, and she's trying to get my attention because I'm folk.
Speaker A:I'm handling, like, two cameras and she's handling.
Speaker A:We both had, like, we're handling.
Speaker A:Handling two cameras, right?
Speaker A:And so she is, like, trying to get my attention.
Speaker A:And like, so she.
Speaker A:She finally gets my attention.
Speaker A:But because we don't want to interrupt what's going on in front of the camera.
Speaker A:Like, she's mouthing, making singles.
Speaker A:I'm like, I have no idea what you're trying to tell me right now.
Speaker A:And then she motions to.
Speaker A:So Kim Smith, who was.
Speaker A:Who was on.
Speaker A:Who was in the film, is crying, right?
Speaker A:And so she's like, girl, she cried where we need to get her something, like, like tissues or something.
Speaker A:And so I like, someone on the opposite side of the table, I think is, like, talking, I think, at the time.
Speaker A:So then I, like, ran and grabbed two and then handed them over to Coco.
Speaker A:She handed them over to Kim.
Speaker A:And I was just like.
Speaker A:And then I'm thinking, I'm like, wait, do I.
Speaker A:Do I stop or do I.
Speaker A:You know, and everything like that.
Speaker A:But, like, they're in the middle of a conversation.
Speaker A:So I'm like, I don't.
Speaker A:I don't know what to do right now.
Speaker A:But it was just so funny because I'm like, you should have seen, like, the scene of us just trying to be like, handle that situation while we're actively filming.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:That's a sign of the recognition of the humanity that you're, like, documenting.
Speaker C:You're documenting humanity.
Speaker C:And at some point, Livingston forgot that.
Speaker C:And as she puts it, oh, I was a conduit.
Speaker C:You were a conduit until the money started flowing.
Speaker C:Then you shut off, like.
Speaker C:And you didn't.
Speaker C:You didn't take care of the community.
Speaker C:You didn't revisit it.
Speaker C:You haven't.
Speaker C:You haven't talked to them.
Speaker C:I bet you didn't show up to a single one of those funerals.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah, and the thing is.
Speaker A:And I think.
Speaker A:Well, I think she.
Speaker A:I think she.
Speaker A:I have to go back to the article I believe she did for.
Speaker A:I think it was Venus.
Speaker A:She may have shown up, but also the thing that really kind of really got.
Speaker A:Got me one of my critiques for the film, just from a director's point of view, is I feel like Venus's Murder is just kind of thrown in there.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Like, it's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker C:It's right at the end.
Speaker A:Right at the end.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:It's kind of.
Speaker A:And I'm like, wait, why aren't we focusing more on that?
Speaker C:Because it happened after the fact.
Speaker C:So they came back to do it.
Speaker C:Yeah, it happened after the fact.
Speaker C:And Angie.
Speaker A:Angie, she, like, she passed away.
Speaker C:She passed away soon after that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I think it was from complications from hiv.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Angie Extravaganza being one of the.
Speaker A:The mom.
Speaker C:She was a mother at the time, and Extravaganza is still a very strong house.
Speaker C:And they're very caring and they're very loving, and we can take some notes from them.
Speaker C:Rochester.
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker A:But, yeah, it was just kind of thrown right in there.
Speaker A:And I'm just like.
Speaker A:And I'm just like, wait, why would you not expand on it?
Speaker A:It was just like, something that was kind of like, yeah, she was murdered in this.
Speaker A:Brutal.
Speaker A:Like, I mean.
Speaker A:I mean, murder is always brutal.
Speaker A:The way in which, like, Angie's describing it, and I'm going, okay, so why would you just throw that in at the last minute and then move on?
Speaker A:It felt.
Speaker A:It felt off, right?
Speaker C:Because, like, it was supposed to be sensational.
Speaker C:It's supposed to be a moment of sensation.
Speaker C:And if you think about it throughout the movie, you'll see little points where there was some kind of sensation around our existence.
Speaker C:Like asking where the girls worked.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:What they did for a living.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Asking the guys, like, so are you planning on being a father?
Speaker C:Like, they would ask those kind of questions.
Speaker C:Or like, oh, it's not a bunch of flamboyant boys, boas, and all that other stuff.
Speaker C:Like, uplifting, Pick Me's.
Speaker C:Like, it was a lot of, like, little sensationalized, weird moments where you're like, well, this is a white person.
Speaker C:A white straight person shot this because you want us to snitch is what you asking us in some scenes.
Speaker C:You want us snitching.
Speaker C:Like, you know, we're not getting jobs.
Speaker C:You know that they're not hiring us out there, so, you know, we're doing sex work.
Speaker C:You want us to talk about it with the DTs also?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:No, thank you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then, like, with the whole Venus situation.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Like, the DT's showing up and, like, they told me that they found her.
Speaker C:And the way they.
Speaker C:I'm not gonna say it because it makes me cry.
Speaker C:Like, the way she was done was brutal.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:But also, I know that's the only Throne room you showed up to because Venus was white.
Speaker C:I know that's the only funeral you showed up to.
Speaker C:As sad as it was, we all love Venus, but, like, that was the one you were going to come through.
Speaker C:If anything happened to anyone that you focused on during this film, it was going.
Speaker C:You were.
Speaker C:The person you were going to focus on was Venus.
Speaker C:If you think about it, Venus had, like, the.
Speaker C:The longest, like, interview.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:If you think about it, Venus, there was multiple shots, right.
Speaker C:And I think they edited in such a way to where she was.
Speaker C:Like, the feature.
Speaker C:Like, it wasn't so much Pepper Labeija.
Speaker C:It wasn't so much like.
Speaker A:Because Octavia gets some.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:It was her and Octavia, and it was because Octavia was the most beautiful and Venus was white.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, shout out to both of them, and they both passed away.
Speaker C:And, like, it's a tragedy that the world doesn't know more about them, specifically about, like, Octavia.
Speaker C:But Venus was a quiet soul who was living her life as best she could in a very tumultuous time.
Speaker C:And it was sensationalized, but not long enough to be talked about during the movie.
Speaker C:It was like, oh, she was found dead.
Speaker C:And I had to.
Speaker C:I had to go over her body.
Speaker C:It was just like, let's talk about how sad the existence of a trans woman is.
Speaker C:So, like, oh, yeah, like, bonus.
Speaker C:A trans woman died during this.
Speaker C:Nice.
Speaker C:That's what they looked at it like.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I'm sorry.
Speaker B:No, no, it's okay.
Speaker B:Well, because I was like.
Speaker B:Like I said, I could listen to you talk all day, but it was because just that made me think about the show pose.
Speaker B:I'm not spoiling anything, but just, you know, like, you get where I'm coming from.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So that's why I was like.
Speaker B:Cause I'm not trying to.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know, I know.
Speaker A:I still need to watch the film.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And once you do it, we could talk about it.
Speaker B:Because I was like, the part you.
Speaker B:You know who.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker C:Disrespect.
Speaker A:You know, it's been on the list, y'.
Speaker B:All.
Speaker B:I will be watching.
Speaker B:But it's like, just the fact that you pointed that out and then watching the show pose, because the closed pose got a lot of its notes.
Speaker B:Like, I wouldn't say a lot of its notes, but I could see, like, way they were going with it because, like, where they were getting their stuff from.
Speaker B:Not saying, like, directly, because they had their own, but, like, their source.
Speaker B:I would say source material.
Speaker B:And Venus, because, of course, watching the show and finishing it and then seeing Paris is Brandon's like, right, yeah.
Speaker A:Right, right, right, right.
Speaker B:So that's all I'm gonna say.
Speaker C:That's why I didn't say it out loud, even though she mad disrespectful.
Speaker C:I'm trying to.
Speaker C:I'm trying not to spoil nothing.
Speaker C:I'm trying not to spoil nothing.
Speaker C:But, like, there's a lot of notes taken from Paris's bur.
Speaker C:Imposed.
Speaker C:A lot of the character characterization of certain characters is based on Paris is Burning.
Speaker C:And it's not just one character.
Speaker C:It's multiple characters.
Speaker C:That show.
Speaker C:I'm just going to tell you one.
Speaker C:Prayel.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Opulence is.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Opulence.
Speaker C:Pray tell, is.
Speaker C:Is that guy.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:Like, so they pull from this thing, and again, it's another white creator pulling from black stories.
Speaker A:I didn't know that.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:And of course the same.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So dang.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:Yeah, but see, it's a rant, but it's also the executive producer on the show.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:You know what?
Speaker B:So that's what.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So source.
Speaker A:Wait, who was.
Speaker A:I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.
Speaker C:The director, Pierce is burning is one of the executive producers on the show.
Speaker C:So that's why I directed one of the episodes.
Speaker B:I said source material.
Speaker A:So, of course, my gosh.
Speaker C:Message.
Speaker C:That conduit thing.
Speaker C:Message.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:We have to think about, like, all right, so, like, you was just.
Speaker C:Why.
Speaker C:Why you ain't at the shows?
Speaker C:Why you ain't showing up at the.
Speaker C:The walkthroughs?
Speaker C:Why you not.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:If you're not ashamed of doing what you're doing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Why aren't you talking about it more?
Speaker C:Because, you know, like, you were a conduit for Cash, who wasn't a conduit for these storytellers.
Speaker C:Because here you are.
Speaker C:There's a new generation of brown and black trans women being exploited by the same woman.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And that's why I was like, yeah, Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Damn.
Speaker B:Got it.
Speaker C:I'll be out here sometime in these streets.
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And we are grateful.
Speaker A:We are grateful for it for you.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:This is something before we wrap, something we ask every single podcast episode.
Speaker A:And cam, I'll start with you.
Speaker A:And I've kind of.
Speaker A:I've modified this question a little bit as we've been talking.
Speaker A:If you were to show other forms of black resistance in film, what would you want to see on screen?
Speaker C:Black resistance.
Speaker C:What I actually want to see more on screen is I want to see love focused on.
Speaker C:I Want to see us prospering and being successful because that is also a way that we fight against resistance.
Speaker C:I'm so tired of them centering our trauma for the sake.
Speaker C:But they never talk about black love.
Speaker C:They never talk about trans, black love.
Speaker C:They never talk about Sapphic relationships in the black community.
Speaker C:In the black community.
Speaker C:We don't talk about those things in a way that we do with the white community.
Speaker C:We have, like, all this artistry and stuff like that, like movies like the Taste of Chocolate and those kind of things.
Speaker C:Why can't we do that for black.
Speaker C:Black queer love?
Speaker C:Why can't we do that for Sapphics?
Speaker C:Why can't we do that for trans women?
Speaker C:We need to start telling stories where there are happy endings, because there actually are happy endings out here for some people, a lot of the time, we just focus on the sensationalization of the black body and the destruction of it.
Speaker C:The tearing down of black trans women, the tearing down of bisexual black men, the erasure of black Sapphic couples of the total.
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker C:I don't know how to say it, but there's this issue that's going on in the community now where, like, we are targeting studs in such an objective, like, objectification.
Speaker C:Like, we're like, oh, I love studs.
Speaker C:They can be switching all that.
Speaker C:That is problematic.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And we need to start talking about, like, where the word stud came from.
Speaker C:We need to talk about how that trans women can be attracted to something other than men.
Speaker C:We need to have those conversations.
Speaker C:We need to talk about, like, real relationships in the families that these people are having.
Speaker C:Because beyond the nuclear family is the chosen family.
Speaker C:We need to, like, start focusing on that and doing it in a positive light, where we show them, like, not necessarily as affluent, but living a life worth living.
Speaker C:Not like.
Speaker C:Like, we, like the lights about to be shut off and like, oh, I got to worry about being murdered every day.
Speaker C:Like, that shouldn't be the entire focus.
Speaker C:I know that that's the thing that happens to all of us because it's happening to me right now.
Speaker C:But, like, I wanna.
Speaker C:I wanna focus on the joy of black queerness, period.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:How about you, Coco?
Speaker B:More black trans women leads?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I. I know when we talked about Jiva, I was working as an intern, like, as.
Speaker B:Like it was for an internship.
Speaker B:And I really appreciate Rachel for letting me just be a part of her process.
Speaker B:And going to see that play was amazing.
Speaker B:Going to see the wizard of Oz, it was obviously, it was very.
Speaker B:You know, I'm gonna say it was the Best version I've ever seen because it was queer coded in every aspect.
Speaker B:We had a beautiful black trans woman as the lead of Dorothy.
Speaker B:Like, she was beautiful, you know, And I think there was also a well known drag queen who was in there for, I think from.
Speaker B:I can't remember the.
Speaker B:I can't remember her name.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:I can remember seeing her, but I just can't remember her name right now.
Speaker B:But just seeing.
Speaker B:I'm not going to hold you.
Speaker B:Every play I've seen edgy, I've cried.
Speaker B:And that was one of the ones I've cried the most at because it was beautiful and queer as hell.
Speaker B:Like, literally, I'm like, especially as it's been inspiring, inspiring me during my process right now as an artist, I'm just like, I can really do anything.
Speaker B:There's nothing that's going to stop me from that.
Speaker B:Same with what Cam said.
Speaker B:Just more black queer love.
Speaker B:We need more of that representation.
Speaker B:And I was also gonna say more on the longevity of trans women because I feel like we don't really celebrate them as much for just being able to surpass 35.
Speaker A:Like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Shout out to me.
Speaker A:Shout out to you.
Speaker B:Seriously.
Speaker B:You know, and I also thought about the project we were working on and thinking about like, Ms. Ricky.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and.
Speaker A:Oh, no, I'm sorry.
Speaker B:But, you know, so I. I just said I just want to see more representation.
Speaker B:Just more black storytelling.
Speaker B:More black queer storytelling filmmaking and everything just.
Speaker B:And more black directors leading it.
Speaker B:So it's no longer giving.
Speaker B:Exploitive.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And being able to pay the.
Speaker B:The people.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And uplifting the people.
Speaker B:So going beyond just the filmmaking process, like actually talking, checking in.
Speaker B:Creating relationships.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker B:That's the thing.
Speaker B:Creating actual relationships with these people and talking to them and checking in, not just coming in when they're passed on.
Speaker A:When it's.
Speaker A:Or it's.
Speaker A:When it's convenient or when it's convenient,.
Speaker B:You know, so just checking in.
Speaker C:Or when it's transactional.
Speaker A:Yes, that part.
Speaker A:So that part.
Speaker A:Well, I could, as, you know, I could keep going because of course.
Speaker A:And Cam kept as.
Speaker A:As she does.
Speaker A:Kept introducing things that I want to talk about.
Speaker A:But then we'll be here, right?
Speaker A:Then we'll be here all day.
Speaker A:And I know y' all got things to do, so.
Speaker C:Not me.
Speaker A:Thank you both for joining the podcast tonight.
Speaker A:Listeners will have actually, before.
Speaker A:Before I actually close, I need to know, where can folks support you?
Speaker A:Cam, where can people support you?
Speaker C:Camera Ian Ayo so K A M R Y N E O S at INSTAGRAM keep a lookout.
Speaker C:I have a future endeavor of coming down the pipe.
Speaker C:It's called Tranos Pod for Wayward Girls.
Speaker C:It's going to be my newest podcast edition since the whole tranos and the lived experience debacle.
Speaker C:Fuck you NQO among your ass.
Speaker C:I'll just like this light afterwards.
Speaker C:Allegedly.
Speaker C:And look, look for me on Facebook and all the other stuff.
Speaker C:Like you'll find me.
Speaker C:Like I'm.
Speaker C:I got stuff coming down the pipe.
Speaker C:But just keep your eyes open.
Speaker C:T r A N O s Trano say with your whole chest or I'll sabo your mom through a coffee table.
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker B:Respect.
Speaker B:Respect.
Speaker A:Coco.
Speaker A:Where can people find you?
Speaker B:You can find me at Buy cocoray B Y C O C O A R A E on social media platforms, my website, coco-rae.com and of course here on this podcast since I'm now a regular.
Speaker A:Yes, yeah, for real, a regular.
Speaker A:And also you may want to mention a certain place that you have that is available for, you know, events and art galleries and all the things the perp.
Speaker B:That is the space that I own.
Speaker B:And of course, yeah, please book me for anything.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:It's on now on Pure Space.
Speaker A:And you can check it out right here in Rochester, New York.
Speaker A:And with that listeners, we'll have information about our guests in the show notes or in the description below.
Speaker A:Of course, if you're watching on YouTube, wherever you're listening from, make sure y' all hit that subscribe button.
Speaker A:Give us a five star rating and let us know what you thought about tonight's episode.
Speaker A:Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and Threads.
Speaker A:You can also visit our Voices project and sign up for our newsletter for more information about what we do.
Speaker A:We'll be back with more episodes continuing our Black August series including Attica, which is on YouTube and the Stroll, which you can now watch on HBO Max.
Speaker A:Before tuning into our next episodes, this has been Jackie McGriff, your host for this episode of Representation in Cinema.
Speaker A:As always, thank you for listening.
Speaker C:This has been a presentation of the lunch of a more podcast network.
